Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No

Close Encounters of Every Kind Explained

• Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No • Episode 22

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A light in the sky isn’t the same as a missing hour of your life—and lumping them together is why the UFO conversation keeps spinning its wheels. We take a clear, grounded walk through the close encounter scale, from Hynek’s original CE1–CE3 to abductions (CE4) and human‑initiated contact (CE5), and show how a shared vocabulary can turn wild stories into workable data. No hype, no hand‑waving—just definitions, cases, and why structure matters.

We start with the roots: Dr. J. Allen Hynek, the astronomer who tried to bring scientific rigor to UFO reports and unexpectedly gave Hollywood its most famous title. From there, we break down each category. CE1 is a close visual sighting—think the Phoenix Lights in 1997, a massive, silent V over Arizona seen by thousands. CE2 adds physical effects: scorched ground, dead batteries, animals acting off; the Rendlesham Forest incident remains a thorny, compelling example. CE3 steps into stranger territory—entities near craft—like the Ariel School encounter, where students described tall, black‑suited beings in daylight. CE4 dives into abductions and altered reality, where memory, missing time, and medical motifs demand stricter methods and steadier skepticism; we unpack the unsettling Antonio Villas Boas file to show how to sort the checkable from the purely narrative. Finally, CE5 reframes the question: can humans initiate contact? We get into meditation protocols, Dr. Steven Greer’s app, and groups like Skywatcher blending intention with signaling tech and public data claims.

Along the way, we talk about why categories don’t “prove” anything—but they do sharpen questions, reduce arguments from vibes, and help separate experience from evidence. We map past episodes onto the scale, flag the psychological cost of moving up the ladder, and acknowledge why some people invite the unknown while others slam the door. If you’ve ever wanted a practical way to think about UFOs—one that respects witnesses and still asks for timestamps, logs, and controls—this is your field guide.

Enjoy the conversation? Follow, share with a curious friend, and text us your stories via the fan mail link in the episode description. Tell us: which CE feels most plausible to you, and why?

Text us something cool or fun and we'll read it on the show!!

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Josh:

Aliens? Aliens. Aliens.

Travis:

Yes. But maybe no. Well, well, well, look who it is. Back for another round of aliens, yes, but maybe no with Josh and Travis. I'm Travis. I'm Josh. And this is an otherworldly podcast as ambiguous as our title. So good job. Yeah, thanks. That wasn't bad. Yeah. How have you been?

Josh:

Good. Really good, yeah. I was not studying for this. I did watch stuff.

Travis:

Oh, you did?

Josh:

For this episode, yeah.

Travis:

What did you watch?

Josh:

Uh the Skywatcher videos.

Travis:

Okay. Okay.

Josh:

That's true. Basically, I didn't watch movies.

Travis:

Those are your new guys.

Josh:

Yeah, they are. Skywatcher.

Travis:

But we'll get into that later. Oh boy. Okay.

Josh:

I don't remember what we talked about last time. This happens every time.

Travis:

Uh Rendelsham Forest. No, that was Uh Men in Black? No. Fuck.

Josh:

No.

Travis:

I have no idea. Ley lines?

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

Ley lines. Is that it? Yeah. He's gonna say Flatwoods Monster? No. Cryptids? It was Ley Lines. Okay. That good old black magic. Why do I keep forgetting? You keep forgetting too. Oh, hell yeah. What's going on? We're just too busy. I don't know. It's also kind of funny. It adds sore charm.

Josh:

Yeah, I guess so. It's like we learn everything and then we just forget about it.

Travis:

Then just purge it. Yeah. It's gone. Yeah.

Josh:

It's probably why we're not experts.

Travis:

Oh man. Well, there's a probably a number of reasons why we're not experts.

Josh:

That's true. So yeah, today it's a little different just because we're not debating anything, or we're not going to end this with our final thoughts because this is just information. Yeah. Just an information episode. Kind of a system set up so people can document correctly.

Travis:

Yeah. So we're talking about what constitutes a close encounter, right? And there are five classifications, right? Yeah of what a close encounter is. Six, though, if you're nasty.

Josh:

Yeah. It doesn't try to explain the unexplained, it categorizes it.

Travis:

Right. Which is handy.

Josh:

Yeah. So I if I had a weird encounter, I could just say, hey man, I had a encounter number blank.

Travis:

I had a close encounter of the first kind.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

Or the second kind.

Josh:

Yeah. We're just gonna go through and I mean, honestly, this is more so for us so that we can understand more. Yeah. Because this is important for us to know, and we've been doing these episodes and not knowing this system put in place. And I hope you guys can learn something as we learn.

Travis:

Yeah. Also plays, you know, a big role in Hollywood. We'll get into this in a little bit.

Josh:

Yeah, it's iconic. I mean, I think Hollywood is the only reason I've heard of this word.

Travis:

Yeah. Thanks, Stevie Spiels. Stevie Spees. Mm-hmm.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

With uh close encounters of the third kind. The third kind, correct mundo dude.

Josh:

But he stole the idea.

Travis:

Bring a little Bart Simpson into the podcast.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

He stole it. Yeah, he stole it, right? Uh wait, what do you mean?

Josh:

It was he didn't really steal it. But I mean, he used a real thing to make the movie.

Travis:

He used uh the system put in place. Well, he used Jay Allen Heineck's work. Uh excuse me, it's Doctor. Doc, okay. I mean, I'm I'm pretty close. I was pretty close with the late Jay Allen. Just call him Jay. I just call him Jay. Yeah. I get that. I don't know what it stood for though. Jiminy. I think you're right.

Josh:

Or does that start with G?

Travis:

It can start with a J. Jiminy Cricket starts with a J.

Josh:

Oh, okay, good.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

Gimini.

Travis:

Uh-huh.

Josh:

But yeah, Jay Allen Heinek, Dr. Jay Allen Heineck, was a respected astronomer. And he consulted to the U.S. Air Force and a scientist who began his career debunking UFO sighting. So he was kind of My kind of guy. Yeah, he was the guy that purposely was trying to say this isn't real.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

And then by the end of his life, he was one of the most vocal advocates for taking the phenomenon seriously. So something or some things changed his mind. Something. Something. Something in it. Little cockney. In 1972, he published his book called The UFO Experience, a scientific inquiry. And in it, he tried to do something that honestly very few people in the UFO world were trying to do at the time. And that was bring structure and scientific rigor to chaos. Okay. And that's when he introduced a classification system that broke sightings and encounters into categories, each one based on how close you were to the phenomenon and what exactly you experienced.

Travis:

Yeah. So we got a close encounter of the first kind.

Josh:

I like to call that a CE one.

Travis:

Oh God. Here we go. That's just going to make it there's so many acronyms and abbreviations in this. It's so confusing. So C E one could mean close encounter one, or it could mean can't exist one. Or whatever. I don't know. I'm just there's just too many. It gets really confusing.

Josh:

Well, we're pretty close, so I uh I feel like I can abbreviate it.

Travis:

With the doctor? Yeah. Or with the close encounter. With the work, yeah. Okay. So that's uh you see a UFO. It's close within about 500 feet. No physical evidence, it's just deciding.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

And then there's the second kind. Yeah. C E2.

Travis:

Okay. Okay. Okay. Yep. Uh C E2. And that's where you get physical effects like scorched grass, interference with electronics, weird animal behavior. So that's seeing evidence of something, maybe otherworldly.

Josh:

I hate the weird animal things.

Travis:

I don't like it.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

I don't like it.

Josh:

And he came up with the third kind.

Travis:

Yeah. And that's you see beings, not just lights in the sky, but occupants of these ships. Things with forms, shapes, maybe even faces, which is how, spoiler alert, if you haven't seen fuck what is now a 40-year-old or 50-year-old movie. Yeah. Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out in 77. Jeez. At the end, as Richard Dreifen's character gets on the ship, the alien smiles.

Josh:

Oh, geez. Really nice. I'm already creeped. I'm creeped out.

Travis:

It's actually it's a really sweet ending. And Steven Spielberg, when he was making that movie, somebody on his crew, or a couple of people on his crew, claimed to have had an experience, but he was this was on like their B team. And Steven has always wanted to have he believes in aliens like I do, but has always wanted to have like an experience. And he keeps missing them just by like being busy. Yeah, just by being busy.

Josh:

Oh man. That's a bummer. Like if someone truly wants it, they should get it. That's what I think.

Travis:

So at the time, like alien movies, depictions of aliens have always been like this violent, you know, group of beings that are coming here to take over, right? Like a lot of this 50 sci-fi stuff. And this was trying to turn that narrative and treating them as more benevolent beings who are maybe here to enhance the human existence. I hope. So it was just a really nice ending.

Josh:

Yeah. Kind of different than what Hollywood has been doing.

Travis:

There's an abduction that happens that's really terrifying in that.

Josh:

Well, then I'm out.

Travis:

The kid gets taken.

Josh:

I don't like that. Two worse things.

Travis:

No, it is it's terrifying. It's very scary.

Josh:

So that's what Dr. Heinek did. He did these three and then stopped.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

But uFology progressed and others expanded to scale.

Travis:

So wait, you're telling me there's more? There's more. But wait. But wait. There's more.

Josh:

Jacques Valet introduced Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind, involving abductions or altered states of reality in his book Confrontations: a Scientist Search for Alien Contact.

Travis:

Okay. Jacques Vallet had an analog in Close Encounters of the Third Kind played by Francois Truffaut, I think his name is a French director and an actor. So he was playing like a cinematic version of Jacques Vallet. I can't remember what his Francois's character's name was. Oh, okay. We get Bob Balaban, who was like the interpreter for Francois's character, Bob Balaban, who does a lot of Wes Anderson stuff.

Josh:

Oh, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about.

Travis:

There's a lot of Christopher Guest stuff as well.

Josh:

And then there's Dr. Stephen Greer. He founded the Center for Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, or C SETI, advocating for human-initiated contact.

Travis:

Now is this the same? Is this like different from SETI?

Josh:

Yes.

Travis:

Oh man. So this is what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's a lot. Tighten up, you guys. You guys need to come together and figure out your acronyms.

Josh:

Yeah. C SETI is advocating for human-initiated contact and communication with extraterrestrial life, which he terms close encounters of the fifth kind. So there's five. I'm sure there will be more. Oh boy. Depends on where you go.

Travis:

I mean, we talked about like there's a sixth kind, but it's not it's nothing that's documented and nobody takes seriously. But that involves babies. Yep. Make them babies. Uh as we say at our house, the old S-word. Slop. Yeah. Yep. The aliens just feed you from a big ladle, kind of like Napoleon Dynamite feeds his llama in the movie.

Josh:

Splashes everywhere.

Travis:

Yeah. Come on, Tina, you fat lard. Come get your dinner.

Josh:

So we have talked about a lot of these. So when we were going through when I was learning about these, I was like, oh, that's like this. That's this. So easy to categorize now. Look at me. I'm a categorizer. So for the CE1, Close Encounter one, is a visual sighting, which we did with the Phoenix flights. And that happened in 97. It's a massive V-shaped object seen by thousands across Arizona. It lasted for hours, minimal sound and unexplained still today.

Travis:

So then you get physical effects. An example of that would be the Rendelsham Forrest incident, where multiple U.S. Air Force members reported strange lights, physical impressions on the ground, malfunctioning equipment.

Josh:

Yeah. And in that episode, we both No animal stuff though. No. No, but these are just some of the bigger famous ones. Sure.

Travis:

And the ones we've talked about on this show.

Josh:

Yeah. And I just want to go on the record. My viewpoint at the end of that episode has changed personally.

Travis:

Oh my God. This is wild.

Josh:

Yeah. I uh I've done some more research on Rendlesham, the Rendlesham Forest incident, and I now believe that something happened. Maybe not aliens, I don't know.

Travis:

But breaking news. Josh changes his opinion.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

Stay tuned to this podcast for more on that.

Josh:

Yeah, the one that really did it was Josh Gates did an episode on it and they turned the lighthouse back on because it isn't functioning anymore. Is that Josh Barolin's brother? No.

Travis:

And your brother?

Josh:

No.

Travis:

Not everyone named Josh is related. All Josh has I think so. I don't I don't think that's right.

Josh:

No. Yeah, he got a light bulb and got that lighthouse running again and stood in the same space, and it is very obviously not something that you can mistake for something right above you in the air. It's not. And that just kind of I was like, oh man. Because that was my thought. Anyways, I just want to do a PSA.

Travis:

Okay. Congratulations on your open-mindedness.

Josh:

Yeah. But that was one. They had the triangle marks. So that was physical evidence. Mm-hmm. They had scorch marks on the trees. Yeah. Okay. And then there's close encounters of the third kind, which is entities observed. And that would be the aerial school.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

That was 1994. A group of students reported seeing tall black creatures emerge from the craft in the schoolyard.

Travis:

We don't need to go back down that.

Josh:

No. I don't want to get you angry.

Travis:

Just go back and listen to that episode. Yeah.

Josh:

It's a good one. I like that one.

Travis:

Yeah. And then we've got Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind, which is abduction or having your reality altered. So an example of that is the Travis Walton abduction and the Betty and Barney Hill abduction. And that's where you experience a loss of time and reported being taken by alien beings and returned home.

Josh:

The spookiest of the encounters, I would think.

Travis:

Uh yeah, because what that spaceship does.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

What happens on that thing?

Josh:

We don't know.

Travis:

Mm-hmm.

Josh:

And that's the hard one. That's the one that a lot of people I don't know. It just seems overwhelmingly close encounters of the fourth kind kind of that faces the most criticism. And it's because it's usually firsthand experiences, which you love. Love it. And people just they go crazy with it. They're overly fantastical and or outright hoaxes sometimes. You know, it's it would be easy for you to show up here and be like, dude, I got abducted last night, and just have my story straight and it's explain it. No one can argue with me. You know, it's just yeah, it's what I say. But yeah, some of them are crazy. And in our notes, it says, like this one, and we don't know what that means, but our researcher, Jordan, gave us an envelope.

Travis:

Oh my god. Okay.

Josh:

And it says, do not open until instructed to do so. So do you want me to open it or do you want to open it?

Travis:

Uh I don't know. I'm afraid of what it says in there.

Josh:

I and what if whoever opens it doesn't read it?

Travis:

We just showed up and there was an envelope on the table.

Josh:

Yeah, we've been eyeing it this whole time we've been recording.

Travis:

Mm-hmm.

Josh:

Really nice penmanship, a little smiley face on there.

Travis:

Oh, great. That's how we get lured in.

Josh:

I don't think that's her smiley face, though. I think someone else did a smiley face on here, one of my kids. Okay. Well, I'll open it since you're gonna be coward. I am.

Travis:

Well, you move the envelope right in front of you.

Josh:

Okay. Nice font already.

Travis:

Oh, comics and your favorite.

unknown:

Yeah.

Josh:

And it's the only font I can read in.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

Okay. So this will be an example of a close encounter of the fourth kind. This is the abduction of Antonio Villas Boas. Researcher notes highlighted says buckle up. So Antonio Villas Boas, a 23-year-old Brazilian farmer, reported being abducted by aliens on October 16, 1957. While working at night, he saw a red light in the sky that descended and landed nearby. He tried to flee but was seized by a 1.5 meter or five foot tall humanoid who was wearing gray coveralls and a helmet. Its eyes were small and blue, and instead of speech, it made noises like barks or yelps. Three similar beings then joined the first in subduing Boas, and they dragged him inside their craft. Once inside the craft, Boas said that he was stripped of his clothes and covered from head to toe with a strange gel. He was then led into a large semicircular room through a doorway that had strange red symbols written over it. Boas claimed that he was able to memorize these symbols and later reproduce them for investigators. In this room, the beings took samples of Boas' blood from his chin. After this, he was then taken to a third room and left alone for around half an hour. During this time, some kind of gas was pumped in the room which made Boas become violently ill. Shortly after this, Boas claimed that he was joined in the room by another humanoid. This one, however, was female, very attractive and naked. She was the same height as the other beings he had encountered, with a small pointed chin and large blue cat like eyes. The hair on her head was long and white, somewhat like a platinum blonde, but her underarm and pubic hair were bright red. What Boas said he was strongly attracted to the woman, and the two had sexual intercourse.

Travis:

Hell yeah.

Josh:

Get it. During this act, Boas noted that the female did not kiss him but instead nipped him on the chin. When it was all over, the female smiled at Boas, rubbed her belly, and gestured upwards. Boas took this to mean that she was going to raise their child in space. The female seemed relieved that their task was over. Oh it wasn't as good as he thought. And Boas himself said that he felt angered by the situation because he felt as though he had been a little more than a good stallion for the humanoids. Boas said he was given back his clothes and taken on a tour of the ship. He tried to take a clock-like device, but was caught and escorted off. The ship glowed brightly as it took off. Four hours had passed when he returned home. Okay. Well, we talked about it. So I guess an encounter would be maybe the six would mean the fourth. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But that is probably someone's fantasy, uh, not mine.

Travis:

Platinum hair and red hair everywhere else. Yeah, that's bonkers. Sounds like a fever dream.

Josh:

I mean, yeah. This very well could have man, I d I want to do more research on that. At some point, I will.

Travis:

But good for him. A good stallion. He was a good stallion. For the human race.

Josh:

Yeah, I'm curious on like if some of the things he said lines up with some other things that are real. Yeah, it's just bonkers. I just don't. And there's probably a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, we've only really researched the episodes that we've done.

Travis:

I want to know more about the ship. He just said, yeah, and then I got a tour of the ship, but it was mostly like, I had this crazy sexual experience.

Josh:

I mean, that was definitely the highlight, probably.

Travis:

And I was very good at my job, but she was not very happy. But I was good.

Josh:

I wonder if the gases that were pumped in made him attracted to her. Like if it was some kind of like pheromone. I don't know. That'd be interesting. Well, crazy. Do you think that exists? I mean, if it were, the aliens would have it, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Travis:

And that's how we got Viagra.

Josh:

Yep.

Travis:

Space drugs. Mm-hmm. Yep. Hens made their entire career off of this experience.

unknown:

Yeah.

Josh:

Um, well, that's a wacky story. And I don't know if it's true or not. That's why I want to do more like what were the symbols he said he saw? And if you could remember those, yeah. Does he remember everything about it? Yeah. I don't know. Well, that'll be a little personal deep dive for me. So that was four. That was another crazy example of four. Five is human-initiated contact. So meditation-based contact. Stephen Greer, founder of C SETI, promotes meditation-based contact and started an app called CE5 Contact. According to Greer, to engage with extraterrestrial beings, you'll need a few key ingredients: a sincere heart, a clear intention, and a connection to one mind consciousness. Almost sounds like trying to believe in magic.

Travis:

It does. A pure heart. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to buy an app.

unknown:

Yeah.

Travis:

Which is funny. He's like, you can do all these things, and that's great. But there's one final thing. You're not going to be able to do this without. And it just so happens that I've created this app.

Josh:

Yeah. A CE5 app, like CE5 contact on the app store, and it's for finding local groups and resources. So according to the CE5 handbook, here's a little more detailed breakdown. So the heart. This is what you need.

Travis:

You need a heart.

Josh:

You need a heart. You need to feel things with those hearts.

Travis:

Yeah. And we're talking about an actual heart, right? You need to have an actual heart. Mm-hmm.

Josh:

Yeah, you need to be alive.

Travis:

Yeah. Okay. Good.

Josh:

You have to have sincerity, a genuine desire to connect with benevolent extraterrestrial civilization, and that's crucial. Openness, be receptive to the possibility of encountering and interacting with extraterrestrial beings. Right. This sounds like being hypnotized. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of like the remote viewing kind of thing, like how to remote view at home, but like a shallower version. So the second of this handbook breakdown is the intention. So you need a clear purpose, formulate a clear intention for the contact, such as seeking information, understanding the universe, or establishing a peaceful relationship. And you need specific focus. Focus your intention on the desired outcome of the encounter. And then the connection. Intention setting is also important because you need to use techniques like meditation and positive affirmations to set the intention for the contact. And then there's the equipment.

Travis:

So the equipment, these are all the things you need: headphones, comfortable clothes, or a blanket. Consider bringing items like a notebook, a pen, a camera, flashlight, and any other tools you feel comfortable using in the field, like an eye mask. So you can kind of deprive yourself.

Josh:

Zen out.

Travis:

Yeah. Deprive yourself of that stimulation.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

And then the process, find a local group. You can practice CE5 alone, but it helps have others to help document and meditate with you. You can practice meditation and intention, utilize guided meditations and affirmations to cultivate a state of receptivity and clarity. And then you want to observe and document. Pay attention to any unusual occurrences, document your experiences and share your findings with your group.

Josh:

Which we kind of saw a little bit of that with Skywatcher. If you guys don't know what Skywatcher is, it's basically a It's Josh's new love language. Yeah. They take this a little bit further. They use this technique. They found some of the best people in the world to join their team. And they're combining this meditation with electromechanical signaling. Yeah. They're tools designed to call something in. And they refer to it as like kind of a dog whistle that they've fine-tuned to be able to get results. And they claim it results in a UAP setting every time. And they haven't disclosed how this technology works. I don't know if they ever will, but they have made most, all of their data public.

Travis:

Proprietary information.

Josh:

Yeah. And they've also in that data include footage of nine classes of UAP. It's phenomenal to watch. It's very exciting, also just insane. Because it's basically they're like the government's taking too long. We're just going to get our own answers. And they're just going out and doing it. They're not doing it emotionally. They're not doing this other than for scientific data. And it's just really exciting. So those are the five kinds of contact. We kind of went through them all. So everything that we kind of discuss further will be categorizing at least one of them. We did the Flatwoods monster. What would that be under?

Travis:

Well, it depends on how you classify the Flatwoods monster. Is it an alien or a cryptid?

Josh:

I mean, they they made it seem as though it's an alien.

Travis:

Most cryptids have some kind of paranormal or well, like maybe supernatural, but I wouldn't say like otherworldly.

Josh:

Aaron Powell I mean one of the theories was that it came down from a space. I mean, they saw a spacecraft.

Travis:

And we talked about Sasquatch being a Wookiee coming from I mean that's just fact. That's not I mean, that's just life. From the Wookie Planet. Planet Wookiee. Uh-huh. It has a name, but I can never remember. It's like Kyrgyz, or I don't know. It's weird.

Josh:

So these five categories offer more than just labels for unexplained events. It doesn't just escalate the level of contact, it escalates the level of discomfort too. Some people are fine seeing something in the sky, and they might even be excited about it. Kind of like you were talking about Steven Spielberg. Sure. I mean, he deserves it more than anyone.

Travis:

Yeah. Stevie just he just wants to have an experience. That's all.

Josh:

Yeah. And he is excited about it. Just give it to him. Yeah. Come on. Others, they tap out at the moment, the lights start flickering, or the dogs start growling at an empty hallway. Which I know some people like that. Nope.

Travis:

Yeah, no.

Josh:

Just a quick nope turn. And then for some, the idea of inviting a response, like with a CE5, feels less like Q I see and more like playing with fire.

Travis:

Yeah. Yeah. Because now you're inviting it into your home. Yeah. The calls are coming from inside the house now.

Josh:

It's like old vampire rules. You have to let them in.

Travis:

Yeah. You well, you don't have to. They can only come in if they're invited. And now you're inviting them in.

Josh:

Yeah. Maybe there's old magic alien rules, ancient rules. Sure. And we did it, and now they're here. Yeah. And that's why there's a big uptick recently, is because we're calling them.

Travis:

Uh-oh.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

Well, hopefully they're nice.

Josh:

Hopefully.

Travis:

Hopefully we get to live out Steven Spielberg's dream of them being nice, benevolent people. And maybe this time they'll actually take Richard Dreyfus off this planet.

Josh:

Hopefully. So that's where we're at. Aliens, yes. That's my opinion. We're not doing that. We talked about that at the top of the show. I know. I just I feel like people should know. But aliens, yes.

Travis:

Yes. Yeah. For sure, sure. I'll I'll be on board with that. Aliens, yes.

Josh:

So this is like I said, a little bit different of episode. Usually we go and give our opinions, aliens, yes, no, or maybe. There's really no point in that for this. This is just strictly learning episode. Just so that we can have a clear picture and some more information for future episodes.

Travis:

And what we all wanted more acronyms. And now I've got to fucking find out what information in my brain got pushed out because now I know what a C E1 is and a C E two and a C E three. So I guess I mean I'll never know what I lost and this was replaced by.

Josh:

No. Maybe you could do uh some hypnosis to see what you lost.

Travis:

Great. Yeah, because those memories are just wet laying on the floor here in your room somewhere. I just gotta pick them up. Just sweep them up.

Josh:

If you guys want to get a hold of us and if you guys have some crazy stories or topics that you want us to talk about, we are all for that. You can message us by just going in our description in our episode. There'll be a link for fan mail, and you can click that and it'll just you'll be able to text us basically and we'll get it. Yeah.

Travis:

How many fan mails do we have at this point? Uh we have one fan mail. And what is this what does it say? I'm sure I'm sure it's a very engaged piece of fan mail.

Josh:

Yeah, it says hi.

Travis:

Okay, good.

Josh:

And I was able to look and it came from you, Travis.

Travis:

Maybe while recording the last episode as you were making a very impassioned plea to have people just say hi.

Josh:

Yeah, I was very excited. I was like, ooh, someone I was like, wait a second, that episode's not released yet. We just recorded it. And that's where I looked up the number and it was your number.

Travis:

Oh boy. So old detective Sherlock Jones over there.

Josh:

Yeah. So maybe if you guys say something, send us something in fan mail, maybe we'll talk about it on the show. Okay. That'd be fun. We also have the quiz. Peruge. Oh. So this next episode topic is going to be Skinwalker Ranch.

Travis:

Oh my God.

Josh:

And I have seen the TV show.

Travis:

Yeah, I have not. I did watch with my youngest. We saw God, I don't remember their names, but they're YouTubers, and they go to Skinwalker Ranch.

Josh:

I remember you telling me about that.

Travis:

It was a waste of time.

Josh:

Yeah. Well, I really like the show. I'm excited for it to come out or for the next season. Well, let's do this.

Travis:

Okay, here we go.

Josh:

So where is Skinwalker Ranch located? So A. Bug Tussle, Texas. That's a funny name.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

Bug Tussle.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

B Concho, Arizona. C, Uinta Basin, Utah. Or D. Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. That can't be a real place.

Travis:

I'm sure it is. We have a street here called Chicken Dinner Road. Truth or Consequences could definitely be a real place.

Josh:

That's true.

Travis:

Um, I don't know. I'm gonna guess and say Concho, Arizona.

Josh:

Okay.

Travis:

Final answer.

Josh:

I'm gonna say Utah. Oh, okay. Just I mean, I don't know. Fuck.

Travis:

Should I change my answer?

Josh:

No, just keep it as is.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

Okay. Next question. What phenomenon is commonly reported at Skinwalker Ranch?

Travis:

I'm getting in my head about this.

Josh:

A UFO sightings and cattle mutilations. B portals encrypted entities. C poltergeist activity and hauntings. Or D all of the above because this place is a fucking nightmare.

Travis:

I'm gonna say all of the above because this place is a fucking nightmare. I just uh that just seems like so many things are going on at Skinwalker Rant.

Josh:

Yeah, that's uh that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna pick that one.

Travis:

Oh boy.

Josh:

Okay. Who bought Skinwalker Ranch in the 1990s to study its paranormal activity? Is that A, Elon Musk? B, Robert Bigelow, C, Harry Reed, or D. Lawrence Rockefeller?

Travis:

I have no idea, but the 90s, I think Elon would have been too young to have been making those kind of purchases.

Josh:

Yeah, he didn't sell, what was it, PayPal until like the 2000s, I think.

Travis:

I'm gonna go Robert Bigelow.

Josh:

Okay. That is what I'm gonna pick. Oh, all right. He's a uh real estate tycoon billionaire.

Travis:

Oh, you say you know. Okay, so I got one right, maybe.

Josh:

Maybe.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

Okay, next question. What government program indirectly funded research at Skinwalker Ranch? Look at all these fucking acronyms. Is it A ATIP, B, ASAP, C, ASAP?

Travis:

A A W S A P, yeah.

Josh:

Or D NASA. I'm not entirely sure. I'm getting sweaty. I mean it's not ASAP. That's as soon as possible.

Travis:

Yeah, but it could be something else. I mean, yeah, it could. So I'm between ATIP or NASA. I don't know what A-A-W-S-A-P is. AwSAP.

Josh:

I'm gonna pick A tip.

Travis:

Okay. No, I'm gonna pick A tip. Ha ha ha ha. You fell right into my trap, Josh.

Josh:

I actually don't know.

Travis:

You know what? I'm gonna say NASA. I'm gonna change it.

Josh:

I don't know when ATIP came into play. So I don't know. I'm gonna say A tip. Okay, next question. When is the first known paranormal report on record from Skinwalker Ranch? Is it A 1776? Spanish missionaries recorded strange lights in the sky. B 1890s, local newspaper mentioned terrorized ranchers and demons. C 1951, police were called when a strange creature attacked a farmer's dog, or D. 1970s, reports of cattle mutilations and glowing orbs began to surface.

Travis:

Okay. I already know what my answer is gonna be. I'm gonna pick 1951, that police were called when a strange creature attacked a farmer's dog. Because skinwalkers? That's the only reason I'm picking that.

Josh:

Okay. I don't know. I'm gonna say Spanish missionaries recorded it.

Travis:

Holy moy.

Josh:

Just because I know there's a lot of ancient lore about this place as well with Native Americans. So I don't know. You definitely could be right. All right. Last question What is the origin of Skinwalker Ranch's namesake? A. A local Cryptid spotted crossing the road at midnight, or B a term invented by UFO researchers in the 1990s, C a mistranslation of a Ute word for Badlands, or D, a Navajo legend with evil shapeshifters.

Travis:

Okay. So I think for me, it's between the last two. And because a lot of places get misnamed based on bad translations, I'm gonna go with a mistranslation of the Ute word for bad lands. Now I want to go back and change my answer to Utah. Oh. But I'm not going to.

Josh:

Oh, okay. All right. It's weird knowing a little bit.

Travis:

So what did you what did you pick?

Josh:

I picked a Navajo legend about evil shapeshifters. Okay. Okay. So we'll have the computer do its thing and we will see our accuracy. So where is Skinwalker Ranch located? I said the Uinta basin in Utah, and that is correct. Winta? Winta? I'm not sure.

Travis:

But that is correct. Classic white guy mispronunciation.

Josh:

I know.

Travis:

Both of us.

Josh:

And you said uh bug tussle?

Travis:

I wish. Uh no, I said Concho, Arizona.

Josh:

Which is kind of close.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

Okay. Next one. What phenomenon is commonly reported at Skinwalker Ranch? We both said all of the above because this place is a fucking nightmare.

Travis:

So that included UFO sightings, cattle mutilations, portals, and cryptid entities, poltergeist activity and haunting. So just a shitload of stuff.

Josh:

Yeah, it's a it's a batshit place.

Travis:

Mm-hmm.

Josh:

Okay. So we both got that right.

Travis:

Uh-huh.

Josh:

Who bought Skinwalker Ranch in the 1990s to study its paranormal activity? And we both said Robert Bigelow. Yeah. And we are correct. Uh huh. Next one, what government program indirectly funded research at Skinwalker Ranch? I said ATIP. You said NASA.

Travis:

We were both wrong. Because I'm a I'm a basic boy.

Josh:

Yeah. Okay. It was OSAP.

Travis:

Which is Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Application Program. That is a program that was a part of the broader advanced aerospace threat identification program, otherwise known as ATIP. It was a contract awarded by the Defense Intelligence Agency to study advanced aerospace technologies, including those with potential for weapon systems, over a period of 40 years. The program's goal was to investigate both foreign advanced aerospace weapon systems and explore potential future technologies.

Josh:

Okay.

Travis:

So that is AWSAP. Okay.

Josh:

Oh, you know what? I was wrong. Brandon Fogel is the current owner of Skinwalker. Okay. He bought it from Bigelow. Bigelow was the one contracted through AwSAP to do all the research. See, I'm already doing research on this. But yeah, so Brandon Fogel is the tycoon, the real estate tycoon. Bigelow bought up properties all around the US and did studies there that were weird. And then eventually they sold the Skinwalker place and Brandon Fogle bought it. So I was wrong in my initial thing, but we both got it right.

Travis:

It's okay, cut that out. No.

Josh:

Next one. When is the first known paranormal report on record from Skinwalker? I said 1776 from Spanish missionaries. That was not correct.

Travis:

I said police recalled when a strange creature attacked a farmer's dog. Not correct. That in 1951.

Josh:

The correct one was 1890. Oh man, so old. Yeah, local newspapers mentioned terrorized ranchers and demons. Mm-hmm. Get demons again.

Travis:

Oh boy. Hopefully that mowing devil.

Josh:

Yeah. And then last one, what is the origin of Skinwalker Ranch's namesake?

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

And I said a Navajo legend about evil shapeshifters.

Travis:

Yeah, I said mistranslation, even though my gut was telling me Navajo legend about evil shapeshifters.

Josh:

Yep. Well, cool. I've watched the show. I know a decent amount of it, but I know there's a lot more. You know, they go into detail slowly. They don't just give like a stamp statement of what everything is, but I'm excited to lay this out. And I don't think I would go to Skinwalker Ranch personally.

Travis:

I don't think so either. I don't know. It sounds like a terrifying place for crazy people.

Josh:

Well, and not even crazy people, just normal people. They have a lot of people.

Travis:

No, but if you want to go there, I think that there is something unbalanced in your life and you're looking for trouble.

Josh:

Yeah. No, I I agree. Well, cool. I'm excited to dive in on that. It's gonna be a wild one. Yeah, there's so much. There's so much. It's gonna be a wild one. I'm excited. And I mean, there's so much documented too, just in the show itself. Yeah. So well, cool. Thanks for listening again, and we will chat at you the next episode. Yay. Bye. Bye.

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Josh Snodgrass

Co-host
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Travis Wright

Co-host
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Jordan Blair

Producer