Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No

The Flatwoods Monster Mystery

• Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No • Episode 19

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A fiery object streaks across the twilight sky over rural West Virginia. Children witness its descent and rush to find an adult. Together, they climb a darkened hill to investigate, only to encounter something that will haunt them for the rest of their lives – a towering figure with glowing eyes and a metallic lower body surrounded by noxious mist.

The 1952 Flatwoods Monster incident remains one of America's most compelling cryptid encounters, blending elements of UFO lore with unexplained phenomena. What makes this case particularly fascinating is not just what was seen, but who saw it – a group that included children, a mother, and a National Guardsman who all provided remarkably consistent accounts of their experience.

We dive deep into the original witness testimonies, examining how the story evolved from a terrifying personal encounter to national headlines. Was this truly an extraterrestrial visitor, as many believe? Or could it have been something more mundane – a barn owl perched in a tree, transformed by fear and fading light into something monstrous? We explore both the skeptical viewpoints and the elements that don't fit neatly into conventional explanations.

The most compelling aspect might be the witnesses themselves. Unlike many who capitalize on such encounters, the May family eventually withdrew from discussing the incident entirely, saying "I'd like to forget the whole thing." Why would they retreat from a story that brought them fame if there wasn't something genuinely disturbing about their experience? Meanwhile, the small town of Flatwoods embraced the legend, creating museums, festivals, and merchandise around their mysterious visitor.

Whether you're a committed believer in extraterrestrial visitors or a dedicated skeptic, the Flatwoods Monster case offers something truly fascinating – a glimpse into how an unexplained encounter transforms not just those who experienced it, but an entire community. Listen, consider the evidence, and decide for yourself: what really happened that September night in 1952?

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Josh:

aliens yes but maybe no. Welcome to the show. Aliens, yes, but maybe no, with Josh and Travis. I'm Travis, I'm Josh, and this is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title. So, josh, yeah, as we do at the top of every show. Let's talk a little bit about what we covered last week.

Travis:

Yeah, last week we talked about.

Josh:

Do you know why I asked you?

Travis:

No. No idea what we talked about last week well, I remembered, and then, right when you asked me, I went blank. Oh man, why do we always do that?

Josh:

I don't know why do we start the show with this way?

Travis:

I think maybe it's endearing well, I also think we should probably talk before the show instead of sit in silence for an hour. I know, yeah, we also think we should probably talk before the show instead of sit in silence for an hour. I know, yeah, we do that we should probably organize this Remote viewing.

Josh:

Yeah, that's right. Men who stare at goats.

Travis:

I've talked about that multiple times with multiple people since then, throughout the week.

Josh:

Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, We've talked about submitting that show to the potties the podcast awards.

Travis:

P-O-T-T-Y.

Josh:

Yeah, the one they throw in the toilet. Yeah, it's like the Razzies for podcasting.

Travis:

Yeah, I like to think this is an introductory podcast. We're not going to deep, deep dive in a lot of these things. Yeah, we're learning, if you want to learn and kind of get the basics. That's what this is about. We're not experts.

Josh:

No, no, not at all. No, I'm legally an idiot, which I have covered many times on this podcast. Yeah, okay, so we talked about remote viewing.

Travis:

I think it's completely real and I think it still exists, but they said they destroyed the program. The big theme is just what can our minds truly do? And we don't really know because we're still pretty young, science is still fairly new. Really know, because we're still pretty young, science is still fairly new. We haven't dove into areas of science to test our limits but the military and some schools have, and remote viewing or astral projecting kind of, was the result.

Josh:

Yeah, I think humans are capable of incredible things and we're still pretty young as a species. Yeah, okay. So today we should have started the show with cryptids. Yes, but maybe no. An earthly podcast where we don't really talk about aliens, or maybe.

Travis:

Maybe yes, because a lot of these cryptids that are known out there do have a extraterrestrial or multidimensional story.

Josh:

so that is a possibility. We don't know, we'll find out. So discuss this. On the last episode, we do well, on every episode we do like a quiz right at the end. Yeah, and the last quiz we did was the flatwoods monster, which is the topic of our discussion today. Yeah, and then you sent me a message. Do you remember that? No, I don't. You had sent me a message like oh my God, you just talked about the Flatwood Monster and I remember on the last podcast, we're like oh, we're going to talk about the Flatwoods Monster and I think my response was huh, never heard of it.

Travis:

Yeah, it was in Men in Black. You were mentioning it could have been anything that they saw. It could have been the, and you said, flatbush monster okay, well, close enough let me find exactly what it says. Oh yeah, you said it could have just been a owl in a tree. It could have been a flatbush monster.

Josh:

Okay, and that correlates exactly very good, very cool, very cool for a very cool thing for me to say yeah I think at the time my wife was going through she had had a surgery and her surgeon was really into cryptids and they were talking about it and my wife let me know and she's like, well, you know, if you have a conversation with my surgeon outside of, you know my surgery, he's really into this. So maybe bone up a little bit on it, and so I did, and I think that was-.

Travis:

You were trying to impress a surgeon. Yeah, man, okay.

Josh:

No, that's cool, I'm an idiot, and so when I'm talking to a smart person you want to look smart, I want to look smart.

Travis:

Yeah, I get that.

Josh:

Yeah, I do like research, you do.

Travis:

So, yeah, that time frame, the men in black episode doing my own independent cryptid research and I just wanted to bring it up on the podcast to sound like, uh, like I was doing some work, but you forgot all of it, absolutely every second of it. Yep, well, perfect. So the flatwoods monster. So we watched small town monsters small town monsters yeah that's the youtube channel, the company, and I thought they did phenomenal that was good.

Josh:

Yeah, they talked to the May family.

Travis:

Yeah, they traveled to Flatwoods, Braxton County. They interviewed a lot of people that were original witnesses. They went to exact locations or as close as they could get. I mean, for a smaller company to go that big, I thought they did amazing For this story. There's not a lot of really good media or documentaries or anything about just the Flatwoods monster, so them going this hard on it it was great.

Josh:

I applaud them. So if you're interested, small town monsters.

Travis:

Yep, Small town monsters, the Flatwoods monster. A legacy of fear is what it's called.

Josh:

Okay, one of the interesting things about that video was and we'll cover this a little more in the dossier is that this thing was only seen really like once or twice, like this group of people, and then another family saw it and then it became kind of like a regional folklore.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

But they said that the noxious mist will melt skin from your body and leave you nothing but bones, which is really funny. Like they just created this out of whole cloth. Huh, the people that witness it. The dog supposedly died like vomiting itself to death, but then you talk to the mace and they were like no, that didn't actually happen.

Travis:

Yeah, the dog lived a full life.

Josh:

Yeah, they're like the dog. Lived a full life and was out digging holes out in the. You know whatever this area for years?

Travis:

Yeah Well, in the you know, whatever this area for years? Yeah Well, let's get to the encounter. You want to read it.

Josh:

Okay, settle in Josh for a little bit and I'm just going to read straight from the dossier Cool. On a warm summer evening in the small town of Flatwoods, west Virginia, an urban legend was born. At around 7.15 pm on September 12, 1952, three boys, edward and Fred May, and their friend Tommy Heyer, were playing in the lawn of the Flatwoods Elementary School when they saw something blaze across the sky. It looked to be a fireball headed toward the nearby hillside. They watched it as it appeared to crash on a farm owned by a man named G Bailey Fisher. So the boys ran to find an adult. They told Edward's and Fred's mother, kathleen May, what they saw. She didn't dismiss them and said she gathered up her sons, edward and Fred, their friend Tommy and a 17-year-old National Guardsman named Gene Lemon. Being a small town, two other local kids, neil Nunley and Ronnie Shaver, heard what was happening and joined them Together.

Josh:

The group set off toward the hill with the family dog. They climbed up the slope toward the landing site. The air grew thicker. The further they went, the more they could smell something foul, like sulfur or burning oil. The dog ran ahead into the dark trees. Then it barked and suddenly stopped.

Josh:

Gene Lemon, holding a flashlight, moved toward the spot where the dog was and in the shadow of the trees, something moved. Gene raised the beam and what they saw would haunt them forever. There, standing among the trees, was a figure. It stood at least 10 feet tall. Its face was shaped like the ace of spades. At the center, two glowing green eyes, unblinking, stared back. The body was dark red, with what looked like clawed hands protruding from long arms. Below the torso a dark metallic casing flared out like a skirt Around the creature. A thick, noxious mist swirled. The smell of sulfur filled their lungs. It emitted a low mechanical hissing sound. The dog bolted away. One of the boys wet his pants. Gene Lemon screamed and dropped the flashlight as he fell backwards. The group, nauseous and terrified, turned and ran to safety. What they saw would spark national headlines, official investigations and decades of speculation. But for the people who were there that night there was no doubt they saw a monster.

Travis:

I think the most important thing that we need to focus on is the wetting of the pants.

Josh:

If you are going to investigate something, no matter what it is, always bring a change of pants.

Travis:

Why not Better be safe?

Josh:

Better be safe than embarrassed. That's what I always say. Yep, it's the only tattoo I have Right at the base of your back, I'll never tell where it is Right at the base of my back. Yeah, exactly.

Travis:

Yep.

Josh:

I did want to say doing some research. I think I fell in love.

Travis:

With the Flatwoods Monster.

Josh:

Uh-huh, I went down a very weird rabbit hole looking up sexy fan art.

Travis:

Oh, that is weird.

Josh:

It was confusing for me.

Travis:

Sexy fan art of the Flatwoods Monster.

Josh:

Uh-huh, and there's a lot of it out there.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

It started. When we first started doing research for this after the quiz, I had no idea what this thing looked like and one of the depictions was like and I think I sent it to you was like a depiction of the Flatwoods monster in the Marilyn Monroe over the air grate and I was like, huh interesting. I wonder how much more of this is out there. There's a lot Spoiler alert. There is a lot, so I'll be sending this to Josh.

Travis:

Maybe we could have some links in our show notes, and if you guys want to send us some sexy fan art, do it. Travis is a fan.

Josh:

I'm a yeah'm. It was very confusing, like I said, wow, I think I'm in love well, I'm glad we have this podcast where we can unpack that until we talk about another cryptid and I go down another similar rabbit hole well, I will try to figure out where to put this in the show. That's why I had just had to get this off my chest. I don't know where it's gonna fall in the show show.

Travis:

Yeah, well, we can figure it out. It's crazy All this happens and there was nothing in movies, media or comics about aliens or monsters at the time.

Josh:

Like this is all fresh. You're right, this was the first time that any alien or monster had appeared in popular culture at the time.

Travis:

Well, name some. Thing. I mean, you sound like you're doubting me. What was there?

Josh:

Well, there was War of the Worlds, plan 9 from Outer Space. There was the work of HG Wells. Heard of him, yeah, hmm.

Travis:

I guess yeah.

Josh:

Flying saucers had become such a big part of, like, b-movie cinema at this time, so this is 1952. Cinema at this time, so this is 1952. We also have the Cold War. That is like very much building up, so the Cold War beginning after World War II. I don't think that the paranoia of the Cold War had quite reached rural West Virginia, so I don't feel like that was a part of like them being scared about aliens or whatever. But you know it was a big thing in popular culture. I don't know when the Twilight Zone started. May have been around this time, yeah, because I mean the originals were black and white. Well, I know, josh, you can make.

Josh:

Well yeah, I know you can make black and white, but you can make black and white now.

Travis:

Did they stay black and white when color existed, or I just?

Josh:

assumed. Oh, so this was years before the Twilight Zone. Twilight Zone started in 1959. Okay, so we talked about Kenneth Arnold on a previous episode. Yeah, this was just a couple years after the Kenneth Arnold incident, that was 1947.

Travis:

A few months after Roswell. Roswell was big too. It truly was the golden age of sci-fi. I mean, they were just going hard on aliens and monsters, yeah, and this is sounds like a combo of potentially both If it came from a fireball falling out of the sky.

Josh:

Right. Is that what they said?

Travis:

They saw like a big ball of fire.

Josh:

Who's?

Travis:

they the boys. Before they went and got an adult, they saw a fireball, just a big round ball, and then they went and got some adults. They came back to investigate the craft. Then that's where they saw the creature, the alien maybe.

Josh:

so yes, uh, maybe the way that documentary that we watched ended was with the may boys saying I don't care what you guys believe. We saw this thing, there are a lot of questions and the media did kind of pick it up and run with it like our dog, like we talked about. Their dog was still alive. The media had said their mom jumped over a six foot fence and they're like my mom was athletic but there's no way she was jumping over a six foot fence.

Travis:

Yeah, the media was just trying to get sensationalized yeah. So that's what was great Cause, these guys, these original kids who are now old men, they stopped talking about it years and years ago. So it was cool to actually see them interviewed. They stopped talking about it because first it did get sensationalized and then they saw what they saw. A lot of people got upset about it and were angry with them, yeah. And so they're like well, I'm just going to stop talking about it. Either going to believe or not.

Josh:

Yeah, and then the town was like yoink Sutton or whatever. The town was where they live it. Yeah, and then the town was like yoink Sutton or whatever. The town was where they live. It was like yoink. Okay, fine, we're just going to take all of the story and mythology and we're going to capitalize on it and we're going to create the Flatwoods Monster Museum. We're going to have like a A festival. A festival, sure, a parade we're going to have, like a scavenger hunt that you can do.

Travis:

And guess what?

Josh:

you win with the scavenger hunt.

Travis:

What A fucking sticker. Yeah, I'm going to get that sticker. Well, and this is around the same area as the Mothman which is uh, which has another festival.

Josh:

Yeah, is that West Virginia also?

Travis:

Or is that North Carolina? It's West Virginia, okay.

Josh:

My wife would kill me if I didn't know where it was from. That's her favorite cryptid. Ooh, kill me if I didn't know where it was from. That's her favorite, cryptid.

Travis:

Ooh, thank God she doesn't listen. Yep, these witnesses, the Mays, yeah, may, yeah, the May boys. It just seems like a very real reaction for them to want to stop talking about it, that kind of solidified, that they did see something. Yeah, and they're not lying, they refer to the guardsman Lemon as that Lemon Boy, which I thought was so funny In that documentary. I wanted to call out that name because it sounds like a fake name.

Josh:

They're like that Lemon Boy. He sure had a lot to say about this.

Travis:

It was like real lemon.

Josh:

Yeah, it was so funny. So we're talking about like a group of people right that saw this.

Travis:

Yeah, A family, a friend and then a young acquaintance who was in the national guard um.

Josh:

Should we describe what this monster looks like? It was described about like huge boobs, right no?

Travis:

you described it well in the story a sexy smile.

Josh:

I don't think you need to take creative liberty and a skirt.

Travis:

Metal legs. I like it right. Yeah, there was mention that it could possibly be robotic or missile-like or that was just a version I saw in my own research. Yeah, and in my research there was mention of it looked like a B-52 bomb, like it had the shape of that Pointy kind of on top, metal-ish, like maybe that skirt was metal hell yeah, man, this is keep telling me about it funky. It was 10 feet tall, face shape like ace of spades, two glowing green eyes, unblinking between 7 and 17 feet.

Josh:

Yeah, it's how it's sometimes described as well.

Travis:

But yeah, like yeah, the original witnesses. They compared it to a tree that it was standing next to, and that tree is no longer there, hmm, curious. Well, it was there for a long time but it rotted eventually. I mean trees, not all of them make it, sorry to say, did it?

Josh:

rot, yes, or did the gas get it?

Travis:

I don't know, because it's not there.

Josh:

You can't ask the tree.

Travis:

Nope, but they knew the approximate height of the tree and that, and so that's kind of where we get the height.

Josh:

Or the approximate owl in the tree.

Travis:

Yes, and the trees do look spooky over there. They look like arms.

Josh:

So I watched this video with my wife and I just kept remarking how beautiful it looks there.

Travis:

Oh, absolutely.

Josh:

Very green.

Travis:

That's where Fallout 76 is. It's just fun walking through that kind of area and they did a really good job recreating West Virginia. The Flatwoods monster is in that game and I completely forgot and I did play that part.

Josh:

There's a video that said that they were also in Zelda. I don't remember.

Travis:

Yeah, I saw that too and I wrote that in my notes. I was like Zelda and I put a question mark. Yeah, but the Japanese have really taken a liking to the Flywood Monster. Zelda is a Japanese game.

Josh:

Okay, so it's in Majora's Mask.

Travis:

That was the really really hard one, wasn't it?

Josh:

Yeah, it was a pretty complicated game.

Travis:

Like the hardcore gamers played it. Yeah, that was right after Ocarina of Time. Okay, so Well, you mentioned the immediate aftermath, so there was local law enforcement in this small town.

Josh:

Yeah, and what?

Travis:

did they find? Well, when the sheriff and his deputy arrived at the site shortly after the monster was gone, there was no sign of a creature, no craft, no tracks, no indentations or anything To the law. There was no evidence, there was nothing unusual. They just assumed that it was just some frightened kids.

Josh:

And a mom and a guardsman.

Travis:

In a spooky woods, yeah, which they did spooky.

Josh:

I mean, this is Septemberember, so at seven o'clock it would probably have been pretty dark. This is when the sun is getting pretty low in the sky shadows are abound, yep I mean the sun starts setting at that time, at about, you know, 6, 30, 7 o'clock so this is right around sunset, if not a little after the twilight time, and so if you're walking around on the woods, especially then when there's not a lot of streetlights, you know you're on the woods.

Josh:

this is 1952. Yeah, there's a lot out there that could probably really scare you.

Travis:

But children don't have imagination.

Josh:

But I mean they were. They were their mom, Not originally. No, they brought their mom out, they told her mom.

Travis:

They came back, so the kids saw the thing they saw the thing.

Josh:

But they didn't go out in the woods, no, initially.

Travis:

They went and got an adult. They saw the thing through the sky. Good boys.

Josh:

Yep. They went and got their mom and then brought some of their neighborhood friends along to go out and explore this area.

Travis:

Yeah Right, good for the mom though.

Josh:

We haven't mentioned that, that she didn't going through a divorce and was probably just looking for anything to do.

Travis:

Right.

Josh:

I don't know she was like. I mean, she's a mom, she's probably busy had a handful of mama's little helpers and her two and a half tumblers of vodka and decided to go out on this little adventure with her kids.

Travis:

I mean, we're both parents. If my kid, I would not go investigate with my kids. I'd just be like, nah, we're fine, just stay inside.

Josh:

I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just make sure you take your phone with you.

Travis:

So good for her.

Josh:

Yeah, I think that's a good parent, not dismissing Sure, just looking for a little adventure, break up monotony, maybe find a new daddy for her kids. Huh, I don't know. Hmm, maybe an alien. Yeah, maybe an owl.

Travis:

Oh, so this happened. News outlets picked it up. Well, first it spread word of mouth. These kids were talking about it at school. It was some spicy recess goss.

Josh:

And, as we talked about, kids are reliable narrators.

Travis:

Always News outlets, the local papers, ran the story, then national news outlets picked it up. That's kind of how the tale of the Flatwoods monster exploded almost overnight. But yeah, it just got really popular. And then Kathleen May, the mom, and Gene Lemon. They were on an interview on CBS about this. Their accounts were detailed and very consistent and they described the same eerie creature and the same foul smell and the same unnatural mist. And then magazines Gary Barker published the smell and the same unnatural mist. And then magazines Gary Barker published the Monster and the Saucer. It's in Fate magazine. The tagline was True Accounts of the Strange and Unknown. That was in January 1953. By Gary Barker. So this blew up really fast, which is pretty wild in a world with no social media or fast connections. Kids and a family see something and now the whole world knows. Pretty wild In a world with no social media or fast connections, kids and a family see something and now the whole world knows. Pretty cool I would be proud of myself For spreading this, this rumor.

Josh:

It's not a rumor, just spreading your true personal experience.

Travis:

Yeah. So the spotlight came and with it the skeptics who questioned the motives of the whole thing and just said it was a hoax, the May family, like I mentioned before. They eventually just kind of withdrew from the whole conversation and years later Ed May said I'd like to forget the whole thing. And that's one of the things that I've mentioned. A lot is, why are these people I mean, I don't think there's a huge group of people that would make these things up. There's no benefit to it and it usually ends up just kind of messing with their lives and ruining it, and they always usually regret speaking up.

Josh:

Yes, and. But I also think, like some of the stuff is situational and maybe they didn't see something, but they were so committed to the shared experience they had and then, years later, they're just like you know what. Maybe I'm misremembering it, but the best way for me to handle this is I would just say like I'd rather the whole experience didn't happen at all.

Travis:

And there might be some people that way. These guys, absolutely it happened to them. They're like yeah, it happened, but I just wish I could forget it all, because it sucks Like I could forget it all, because it sucks like I can't have normal conversations with people. People either believe me or not.

Josh:

They seem whatever I say isn't going to change that. They seem to be doing just fine I mean they're okay I mean that the guy was able to afford a callaway hat, and I know those aren't cheap well, he might be doing well for himself then that's my mark.

Josh:

Success is whether or not you're wearing a golf hat yeah I think that they're fine, but I do feel that enough time had passed that maybe they were doubting what they saw, and I'm not saying that when they said I wish to forget the whole experience that they're saying.

Josh:

You know, this got to be too hot for me. I just think that, you know, maybe they wish that they didn't experience this thing, that they'd experienced whatever it is that led them down this path. Right, they didn't experience this thing, that they'd experienced whatever it is that led them down this path, right. And I think that's the case with a lot of these instances where you're so heightened and you feel so afraid and you're going to create this thing in your head and years later, like as you're talking your way through it, you're going to feel a little, maybe embarrassed that you had shared something that had scared you so bad. And you know you may have misseen something, because, I mean, this instance was minutes like minutes long, right, they saw something and then everybody just poof, took off, everybody went running off, like the Travis Walton incident. There were lights off in the woods and then the driver of the car just sped away and nobody could really capture all of the details. And I feel like fear will do that to you.

Travis:

They all kind of go that way. I mean, the aliens move quick, or the spacecrafts, or the situations. I mean most situations in life happen quick, so you're not going to remember the details of it Not necessarily, but you can also have some heightened sense and you do remember everything.

Josh:

I don't think so. But we're not talking about an alien situation. We're talking about something that could have potentially been anything An owl could have potentially been some kind of animal up in a tree, maybe even a raccoon, could have been the way the sun was setting, the way light was playing off the tree or leaves, or anything like that. It could be any number of things. But this experience happened to these folks so fast. I mean, the mom ran out of there and was later reported jumping over a six foot fence, which the kids say didn't happen. But even that was misreported.

Travis:

Well, I mean when we talk about the reporting.

Josh:

It's not misreporting.

Travis:

It's sensationalizing. You know they're trying to get readers. I mean they still do that today.

Josh:

Right, but these kids they read those reports and they're going to look at what that report is and then slowly they're going to read that report and that's going to eventually maybe replace that memory.

Travis:

I mean, we just heard from the witnesses and their memory is very sound. It lined up and they told us what was true and what wasn't.

Josh:

This video that we watched was in 2017. So this was 60 years, 65. 65. Yeah, after this event had happened.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

There's no way they're going to have total recall as far as this incident.

Travis:

I mean it depends on. I mean I have some dreams that were really traumatic and I remember them vividly, and they were 20 years ago.

Josh:

Okay, there's no way they're going to remember the specifics of the 65 year old memory. I mean, we don't even. There's no way they're going to remember the specifics of the 65-year-old memory. I mean, we don't even Well they've recounted it a lot. We can't even. No, they gave up. They stopped talking about it.

Travis:

Well, they stopped talking about it, but before that they talked about it a whole bunch. So if I talked about this experience with my friends that were part of it, and I talked about it a lot, and we've talked about this before on very clear, you're going to start to describe things the way you describe them to your friends, and then that's going to be your memory.

Josh:

That doesn't necessarily mean that that's a true memory. That's exactly how it happened. You're going to start telling your friends this experience. Oh my god, my mom jumped over a fence. Oh my god, the dog died from vomiting. Oh my god, there were actually six people there. One of them died because the skin was melted off.

Travis:

There was nothing but bones left but you're saying statements that aren't necessarily founded in truth. No, they are founded. This is like no you're saying in science you're saying that this is what's happening, or these people.

Josh:

No, I'm just saying remember to totally rely on these two people's memory. It's not reliable, and to say that this is a fact is not true. This is just an opinion that they experienced. This is how they're recounting their experience. It doesn't necessarily mean that there's a flatwood monster, which I think would be fucking great. I love cryptids, but that doesn't mean that what they experienced was an actual otherworldly experience. I can respect that there are other elements and, like we're talking about, this is a 65 year old memory.

Josh:

Well, when you, when you give from a very heightened like less, probably less than five minutes.

Travis:

Well, what I'm saying is when you give a stamp statement to saying that a lot of these people that experience these things are not remembering correctly or they don't talk about it because their opinion changes. We don't know that, and I feel like this is a really good case where their view and opinion didn't change, like this is a really good case where their view and opinion didn't change. What changed was they didn't want to be trying to convince people or anything like that, because they said it doesn't matter what we say, you're either going to believe or not, and we're sick and tired of that conversation, and it wasn't about their memories changing or anything like that. They stopped because they didn't like the conversation anymore, and I think that makes it a little bit more reliable, instead of their opinions changing or the stories changing, which we have seen in the past. That's why this just seems there's a little more truth that they did experience something.

Josh:

I think they experienced something, and that's personally. That's where I'm going to give them credit.

Travis:

Yeah, Well, let's talk about additional sightings. So prior to September 12th which FYI, September 12th is the festival date In Braxton County yeah, If you ever want to go to that, Audra Harper sees a tall shadow figure rise from a fiery location. And then, September 13th, George and Edith Snitowski experienced car trouble which we've seen before Betty and Barney rubble. They've experienced car trouble near the Flatwoods and they reported smelling sulfur, seeing glowing clawed figure touch the car and the car restarts mysteriously after the figure vanishes.

Josh:

Yeah, so in that video that we watched it was a little more harrowing. The way it was told in this video is that the husband was outside, maybe thrown a whiz or something like that, and had rushed back to the car and couldn't get it started and the mother was putting the kids on the floorboard, saw the monster and he heard her screaming from inside and the monster was coming and then he ran inside.

Travis:

They got the kids on the floor and then the thing touched the car and then they hid, it was gone. And then when they looked up again, it was gone, yeah, and then the car started. So he just came and fixed the car.

Josh:

Yeah, I mean like pretty nice Space mechanic. Yeah, just trying to help. What a sweetie.

Travis:

Yeah, makes me fall in love with it all over again it is interesting having seeing a fiery thing around the same location, which is what the kids saw, and then a different family seeing a creature that looked similar so let's talk about that.

Josh:

There was a meteor seen in baltimore, near there, very close geographically, yeah, in the sky I mean it is. I mean all those states on the East Coast are so close together.

Travis:

They are.

Josh:

So the geographic distance from Baltimore, maryland, to this place in West Virginia is like half of Idaho. Idaho is such a big state. It's like as they were drawing and moving west they got real fucking lazy with the map drawing and they're just like I don't give a shit anymore. There is still so much land out here. This entire stretch is Montana. This is all Wyoming. So the states as you move west get considerably bigger.

Travis:

Well, and this is also what the US Air Force concluded. This was their reasoning and excuses their official explanations Not excuses, reasons, sorry, yes, yes, deductions, sure. And they also said it was likely a barn owl perched on a tree. Mm-hmm, just seems like lazy work.

Josh:

Well, I mean, there are a lot of barn owls.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

Great horn owls you know are very prominent, especially out in the woods yeah, they are. And you know are very prominent, especially out in the woods. Yeah, they are, and they're big and they're big, creepily big.

Travis:

We went to an animal sanctuary in Texas and it was awkward. They have an energy when you're around them and it's a noticeable energy. They're a bird of prey.

Josh:

They're terrifying.

Travis:

Yeah, but also calming. I don't know, it's weird.

Josh:

So yeah, there are a lot of owls in West Virginia a barred owl, a great horned owl, long-eared owl, Ooh, a snowy owl those are some big birds.

Travis:

The ones we saw was like the biggest owls in existence and there's three of them on a thing and they looked fake. It was weird. They didn't move. It was one of the most fascinating things I've seen.

Josh:

It weird, they're incredible birds yeah, but you know, maybe that was it, maybe that's what they saw possibly.

Travis:

I mean there were skeptics saying it was anxiety and hysteria distorting their perception, which you've mentioned before. The obvious it could have been shadows and branches and trees creating an optical illusion. The description does kind of align with an owl, possibly like. Like, if I'm going to play devil's advocate, if everything aligned perfectly, like the shadows and the branches and then the owl and a tree, I could see a kid thinking like holy fucking shit, this is something crazy.

Josh:

So are all of the depictions from their kids'. Does the mom describe what it looks like?

Travis:

does yeah, they all saw it and they all have similar descriptions, including the national guard guy the lemon boy yeah, and then the nausea and panic were symptoms of overexertion and fear.

Travis:

So it is a big possibility. But then having a couple others in different situations, having similar experiences with the fireball on a separate day where the meteor is already come and gone, and one of the guys described the ball. He said it just kind of like got more red but less bright and then it faded away like up until a pinpoint. So maybe that was a meteor, yeah, maybe. So you can always be skeptical about everything.

Josh:

Or you can always just believe everything.

Travis:

But just the combination of all the stories we've gone through and the thousands more that are out there. Yeah, there's probably a lot that aren't real, but there's so many that you can't deny that something's going on eventually.

Josh:

there's so much I mean you can? I don't want to prove you can.

Travis:

But it's just like when you have enough puzzle pieces. If there's enough, you can see a pretty big picture and something's happening, sure it's like?

Josh:

it's like the game of battleship, where you are guessing coordinates right and you don't know where the person's ship is, and you're placing pins on your side. You're developing an idea of where their ships are right Based on the information that's given to you, but this we don't have. There's not enough information. It was a handful of kids, a mom, a 17 year old and then maybe a very heightened family, and that's it. Those are the only real depictions we have of this, and so there's not enough real information, and so what you get is they created a narrative around. It was well, the ship landed here and then took off, and now it's gone.

Travis:

Yeah, and I just think I mean concluding this for me what I believe. This one I think yes, and I think it is alien. Just because of the ship and potential metal. I think, with all the other stories going on, I'm coming into it already believing that aliens exist. And why would I not believe something that I mean? Yeah, it's firsthand experiences. You can't prove it, but them not really wanting to talk about it seems like a natural thing. If something like that happened to me, I'd be a little skeptical about talking about it too, just because of backlash. I think that I'm going to believe because there's a lot of other proof, not necessarily just in this story, but just in all the other stories, and the combination is just like yeah, this is totally plausible. So that's where I fall.

Josh:

I can see that. I can see where somebody like you who wants to believe so badly, is going to see some truth in this. It's not that I want to see badly, it's just you would want to see it so you want to believe so bad that it kind of skews the rational part of your brain where you can think about these things skeptically or at least like rationally, like where you you can look at all information. That's there you want I to. I know you want to believe and I think that that's very sweet.

Travis:

It's not about that. It's just there's so many facts and so many things out there that it would be weird not believing.

Josh:

I don't think so, Because humans have created dragons and weaver and all these fantasy characters based on fear and things that they've seen out in the woods unicorns these all these things are part of, like, human narrative history and I think this just aligns itself with that, like people seeing things out in the woods and getting very afraid and trying to piece together what they've seen. I think humans have like such a long history of recording these kinds of instances with animals and wildlife and things that are foreign to them.

Travis:

And we have a long history of reporting spaceships too, and those accounts haven't changed.

Josh:

We're still seeing similar things today, so it's not off base to think that this is real, but the accounting of spaceships is not as long and as varied as like fantastical creatures, right?

Travis:

Yeah, but we're not seeing creatures now or cryptids, but we are still seeing cryptids and spaceships now, Well, that's what is a cryptid, if not a fantastical creature? Right, but we're still seeing those. You know, or people are still seeing those, these fantasy, mythical creatures you're talking about dragons and unicorns, and cheese goblins, cheddar goblins, cheddar goblins.

Josh:

No, it's just transitioning to Loch Ness monsters and Sasquatches and Yetis and Chupacabras and things of that nature, things that like maybe a little more socially acceptable. Everybody has decided that, you know, there's not a giant snake in the ocean that's going to gobble you up and honestly, I don't believe in a lot of cryptids out there.

Travis:

Actually, when we took this test, I thought I'm probably going to be on the skeptical side of this, but but once finding, out that-.

Josh:

But then as soon as they said aliens, then you're like oh, I'm in, I'm back in.

Travis:

It made a little more sense for me.

Josh:

And it's not delusion. Well, what is a Sasquatch? But just like a bunch of Chewbacca's walking around in the woods.

Travis:

Chewbacca's are aliens, so it's real. Yeah, no, I'm of the sound mind from the facts that I've learned. I don't believe everything I may come across that I do, but I don't always believe everything. I am skeptical. I was skeptical of aliens for a really long time and I saw enough things and encounters and I've watched and listened to a lot of skeptics about it too, and it seems that there are holes in some of the stuff they say. But there's just some things that are unexplainable and the logical explanation would be something otherworldly. Okay, that's kind of where I land on this. Where do you?

Josh:

I want to believe that this was an otherworldly experience. I like the idea of having, like I don't know, aliens among us, right? I just don't think there's enough in this specific instance to really verify it for me.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

So as far as our rating goes, I'm probably a low, maybe.

Travis:

Okay.

Josh:

And you're at a yes.

Travis:

I'm at a yes, maybe high, maybe just because yes is like, oh, absolutely Fact. If that's what yes means, I don't know. I don't know, but we won't know. No, it's one of those things, and most of these are, and maybe that's just how it's going to be with aliens, because it is a highly controversial topic and it is bonkers could have been cold war panic fueled by sci-fi shows I don't agree with shadows, I don't agree with the cold war panic thing.

Josh:

It's just helping move the conversation along and I don't think that it touched rural, rural West Virginia the way it may have touched some more urban.

Travis:

Yeah, One commenter on the YouTube video said that he thinks it was testing for the jet pack and that would explain the gas, the smell, the glow, the metal, the hovering because I don't think we talked about the hovering, but they mentioned that the creature was floating. Yeah, it was floating and the humming sound. So someone said that potentially could be it and that was around the time they were testing that. But why would they be testing it in some backwoods, nowhere place?

Josh:

Because they can get away with it? Maybe Because then they have someone like me coming along 65 years later and saying it's an owl and paranoia. See, so it worked. Maybe that was the whole point. Yeah, if you were going to test somewhere, like you said, why would you test it in such a rural area where it's going to be really?

Travis:

hard to bring equipment to. Yeah, that's the only downfall in that thing, and if you're trucking in equipment that's going to be noticed by people.

Travis:

Yeah, and you would test it in a secure place, especially at the beginning of a Cold War, where secrets are everything. Yeah, you would test it in an area where no one is allowed. It's a really good idea. It just doesn't line up completely. Because, why, because, why? Yeah, well, thank you for listening. That is this episode. We're not done yet, because we still have our award-winning quizzes. We're not done yet because we still have our award-winning quizzes. We don't know what the quizzes are until we open the quiz. Oh, I don't like it. This quiz is about ley lines. I remember you mentioned these at one point and you instantly like no, those aren't real. I don't remember that. Maybe I dreamed it. So, ley lines I know a little bit about it. I've heard them mentioned a couple times, but I don't know a lot. Okay, so this is what we're going to talk about next week.

Travis:

Uh ley lines let's get to it. Did you open the quiz?

Josh:

oh, I'm in it, yep okay, and lay is l-e-. Right, not like I will lay with you, yeah. Or like lay a L E I a princess.

Travis:

Leia, who is an alien, I guess, if you think about it on earth terms.

Josh:

here I mean if you, if you were a human born on Mars, you would essentially be a Martian and not an earth thing, and that would make you alien.

Travis:

Yeah, interesting. All right, first question what is a ley line? Is it a a fault line where earthquakes originate, uh-huh. Good b a mystical straight line believed to connect ancient and sacred sites across the landscape. Good c an ancient road system used exclusively by extraterrestrials. D a trail left behind by lay moths during migration uh, good, yeah, no idea.

Josh:

No idea what a ley line is really. Uh, I think that it's a mystical straight line believed to connect ancient and sacred sites across landscape that is what I believe as well.

Travis:

But the ancient road system used exclusively for extraterrestrials, that could be it as well. Hmm, potentially, hmm, but I'm going to say a mystic straight line yeah, okay. Next question what event inspired Alfred Watkins to first conceive of ley lines? Is it, a a revelatory dream about Stonehenge Great? B a realization in a thunderstorm at Avebury? C a revelation while viewing a map on a hill? Or? D a mysterious letter from a druid?

Josh:

society. Oh, druid, I like that. I'm going to say a revelatory dream about Stonehenge.

Travis:

I'm going to say a mysterious letter from a druid society.

Josh:

Oh, boy, I love that. Because I think they were on to something I love, that I think that's a good answer.

Travis:

Okay. Next one who famously suggested that ley lines might be landing strips for alien spacecraft? A carl sagan, the astronomer. B tony wedd, an ex-raf pilot. C matt parker, a mathematician, or d giorgio sucgio Tsoukalos, the aliens hair guy. Yeah, the ancient aliens guy. Yeah, who's done really great work in the field of alienology and all that and hairdressing. Yeah, he created the messy hair.

Josh:

That's who I'm going to say. Is Giorgio Tsoukalos? Yeah, hair guy.

Travis:

Okay, I'm going to say I mean I want to say that, but I'm going to say Carl Sagan, oh boy, okay, no, we'll find out, all right. Next question which one of the following historical sites is not commonly claimed to lie along a ley line?

Josh:

That was intentionally meant to trip you up that question, but I did it. You did it. You landed the plane, congratulations, thank you.

Travis:

Is it A Stonehen stonehenge, b the great wall of china, c chichen itza or d easter island? I'm gonna say wall of china. I'm gonna say that too, because that one wasn't really uh sacred or ceremonial, it was more of a protection thing it was a boundary set to keep invading hordes out the mongolians.

Travis:

Right, yeah, okay. Next question which of the following is not a name traditionally linked to ley lines in indigenous or cultural belief systems? Is it a dragon veins, b ghost roads, c spirit lines or d broom tracks? Oh man, this one's I don't know.

Josh:

I track seems like it's so fake. Yeah, that that's what I was thinking. But, like who knows the reasoning behind it. I'm going to say dragon veins.

Travis:

I'm going to say broom tracks. Okay, I'm just going to go for it, because I just don't know how that could.

Josh:

Fall for it, huh.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

Walk right into the trap, so what?

Travis:

would a broom track be I?

Josh:

have no idea.

Travis:

I don't know when you're brooming, and maybe there's so much dirt that it leaves a trail on either side Sure A broom track. I don't know.

Josh:

Like if you're sweeping through a really dusty place, that first sweep.

Travis:

Yeah, there's going to be little lines. Yeah, maybe All right. Last question which of the following is not commonly believed to be a vortex or ley line intersection? Is not commonly believed to be a vortex or ley line intersection the a sedona, arizona, b glassenbury tour, england. C mount fuji, japan, or d time square, new york okay, I think time square is considered one.

Josh:

Really. I think so. That's because it's like a center of whatever, of culture, and it's like a center of whatever.

Travis:

Of culture.

Josh:

And it's been a center for a long time.

Travis:

Yeah.

Josh:

Glastonbury, tor, I'm going to say Mount Fuji.

Travis:

I was thinking that too, because it's just a mountain.

Josh:

It's just a fucking mountain. Yeah, like do something mountain.

Travis:

Yeah, get off your high horse.

Josh:

Yeah Jeez, can you imagine how big that horse would have to be?

Travis:

It'd be a high horse. Yeah, high horse. Yeah, all right, so I did mount fuji. Okay, I'm gonna submit. Yeah, okay, so what is a ley line?

Josh:

woolly moly we both did terrible we both said it's nice, you can laugh at yourself oh man, yeah, okay, so line, what is a ley line?

Travis:

It is a mystical straight line believed to connect ancient and sacred sites across the landscape. Got it right, we got it right. Next one what event inspired Alfred Watkins to first conceive of ley lines? I said a mysterious letter from a druid society.

Josh:

I said a revelatory dream about Stonehenge, but then I secretly changed it to a no, I didn't. But I looked back up at that and reread that question and I thought about changing my answer. But I didn't want to go back and tell you I was going to change my answer. So I stuck with a revelatory dream about Stonehenge, even though the right one is.

Travis:

A revelation, while viewing a map.

Josh:

A map on a hill Yep.

Travis:

The simplest answer Yep. A map on a hill Yep. The simplest answer Yep. Okay, so we both got that one wrong. Yeah, who famously suggested that ley lines might be a landing strip for alien spacecraft? It was the ex-RAF pilot, tony Wett.

Josh:

I said Carl Sagan, you said alien hair guy. Yeah, we were wrong. Yep, tony Wett, maybe we'll learn more about him next week?

Travis:

Oh, that would be great. Which one of the following historical sites is not commonly claimed to be on the ley line? Great Wall of China, we both got that right Yep, probably for that same reason, it wasn't Boundary Hymn. Yeah, next one, which of the following is not a name traditionally linked to ley lines in indigenous?

Josh:

or cultural belief system.

Travis:

I got it right broom tracks okay, and then last one, which of the following is not commonly believed to be a vortex or ley line intersection? I was so confident about new york, it was time square, and it was time square. So, mount fuji, you can stay on your high horse. I guess I'm sorry, it's a tall horse. It is Well cool. I'm really excited. I don't know a lot, I know there's weird.

Josh:

I don't know shit about fuck.

Travis:

There's some weird things with them and they line up with a lot of weird things, and weird things happen in these lines and we know where these lines are. I don't know much. I'm super excited about this one. I'm excited to grow my brain, know more and more, sure. Well, thank you for listening. If you want to get ahold of us, we have fan mail that you can reach out to us. Just on your phone. Click fan mail in our description and you can message us and we'll get it.

Travis:

Yeah, well, talk to you next time.

Josh:

Okay, thanks for listening, bye, bye.

People on this episode

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Josh Snodgrass

Co-host
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Travis Wright

Co-host
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Jordan Blair

Producer