Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No

The Haunting Claim of Betty and Barney Hill's Alien Abduction

• Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No • Episode 10

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Journey back to 1961 as Betty and Barney Hill recount a bizarre encounter in the New Hampshire mountains, complete with strange lights, missing time, and unsettling nightmares. Was it a genuine extraterrestrial event, or could there be earthly explanations for the torn clothes, pink powder, and hypnotic recollections? It's truly an interstellar whodunit into the unknown.

Join the guys as they explore the 'first' widely reported alien abduction case, navigating skepticism, prejudice, and the enduring mystery of what really happened to Betty and Barney. 

One thing's for sure, their story left a mark on UFO lore that's still being debated today.

Betty Hill Audio Full Hypnosis Session

Barney Hill Audio Full Hypnosis Session


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Josh:

Aliens Aliens, yes.

Travis:

But maybe no. Welcome to the show. Aliens, yes, but maybe no. I'm Travis and I'm josh, as always, and this is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title. Okay, so this week on the show we're kind of diverging from what we normally talk about with aliens. We're talking about benny and barney hill from the flintstones, right? So this whole week I've just been catching up on my Flintstones episodes. I thought it was weird.

Josh:

This is really uncomfortable, because that's not what we're talking about. It's Betty and Barney Hill.

Travis:

Yeah, Betty and Barney Hill, the Flintstones neighbors.

Josh:

No, this is a different story. This is real life. This isn't cartoon.

Travis:

Well, I thought that was weird. Why did you make me watch all the oh no, I thought it was funny.

Josh:

Betty and Barney.

Travis:

Rubble. I thought that maybe it was a typo in our oh no.

Josh:

Well, maybe you can start another podcast about the Flintstones. Go episode by episode.

Travis:

That's what the podcasting world needs is just more Flintstones content.

Josh:

Yeah.

Travis:

There's just not enough out there.

Josh:

It's a 50 old cartoon one of the longest running cartoons yeah, I enjoyed it when I was a kid, next to the simpsons. I enjoyed the live actions too. When I was a kid I tried watching with my kids it was hard, you would you sicko no, it was great so uh should we talk about?

Travis:

this is gonna be uncomfortable. Yeah, I did. Uh, the wrong amount of research.

Josh:

Classic travis yeah, so we are talking about betty and barney hill. Yeah, and the abduction the real, honest, true, not faked abduction of betty and barney hill yes, you agree?

Travis:

do I agree? Yeah, that's what we're talking about today. Yeah, you agree that it's all real uh, no, let's save our judgments for the end. Okay, how dare you call me out so early?

Josh:

on the show.

Travis:

How dare you?

Josh:

I wanted to have you say yes, which you did, and I'm going to edit that towards the end.

Travis:

Yeah, I know, I know how these work. That sucks. I actually get all the quiz answers right, but Josh edits my response so that he looks good and I look bad. Yep, classic Josh. I would say good and I look bad. Yep, classic Josh. I would say yeah, it is classic Josh. Yeah, classic me not doing the right research and classic Josh manipulating the answers.

Josh:

Except for that one, you got all of them right.

Travis:

I think that was to give me a false sense of security.

Josh:

It was.

Travis:

Yeah, well, it worked like really well.

Josh:

But we're not going to air that. So here's the story of the incident. I'm going to read a little bit of story. Okay, you can finish off the story.

Travis:

Excellent. Do I just get cozy here for a little bit, do you want?

Josh:

me to lean back. Get the Snuggie out.

Travis:

Okay, I'll drink some of my coffee.

Josh:

It was the night of September 19th 1961. Betty and Barney Hill were returning home to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, after a well-deserved vacation in Canada. As they drove through the dark, winding roads of New Hampshire's White Mountains, a strange light appeared in the sky. Betty assumed it was a star or perhaps an aircraft, but as the light drew closer she realized it was moving erratically, darting from side to side. It was unlike any aircraft they'd ever seen.

Travis:

What if it was moving erratically? Uh Like doing a little sexy sky dance that'd be fun it was like that dun, dun, dun, dun, dun like a sultry back and forth.

Josh:

Yeah, yeah, that's uh that's a thought that is a thought right there anyways it was unlike any aircraft they'd ever seen. Barney, a skeptical man by nature, was initially unconvinced that this was anything unusual.

Travis:

I like him already.

Josh:

But the object soon descended, getting close enough that Barney could make out its details through binoculars. Barney would later describe what he saw A large, flat, disc-like craft with rows of windows and figures standing behind them, tall, grayish figures watching them from above. His skepticism gave way to fear. Barney urged Betty to roll up the windows and they sped off down the deserted road. Moments later, a strange buzzing sound filled the car and they felt a wave of drowsiness come over them. The next thing they knew they were nearly 35 miles down the road, with no memory of how they'd gotten there.

Josh:

Once home, both Betty and Barney noticed unusual things. Betty's dress was torn and stained. Barney's shoes were scuffed, as if he'd been dragged. A strange pinkish residue appeared on their car and they began to experience nightmares vivid, haunted dreams of being taken aboard a spacecraft, examined by unknown beings. Desperate for answers, the Hills sought out medical help Under hypnosis. They recounted the same disturbing details Memories of being taken aboard the ship, separated and subjected to invasive examinations. Betty described the beings as gray-skinned, with large, dark eyes and thin bodies. They communicated through thoughts, not words. She even recalled a star map shown to her by one of the beings, a map of unknown constellations. Betty's star map, later studied by astronomers, seemed to correlate with a star system only identified years after her experience.

Travis:

I think that that is a pretty easy thing to just throw out, because the universe is so big. If you just say it was two stars here and two stars there, three stars here, you could find that constellation eventually through, yeah, eventually, like there's almost an infinite amount of stars which there there are. I mean as far as we know, we can't, we haven't been able to count all the stars, so yeah that is infinite. You can't count it, so I think that that could just be thrown out.

Josh:

Personally, I ain't no star scientist, but I darn tootin, think you're on to something. Is this a new character?

Travis:

you're trying to out. What's this character's name? Skip cool, good, good job. Skip the the skipper. Yep, skip the skipper, skip the skipper down home country boyipper.

Josh:

Down home country boy, once cowboy, now.

Travis:

Podcast aficionado On a boat. Yeah, so I'm going to pick up from the dossier where Josh left off. So the story of Betty and Barney Hill isn't just one of extraterrestrial encounters and strange memories. It's also a story of prejudice. Betty and Barney were an interracial couple in 1961, at a time when such relationships faced intense scrutiny and stigma. Betty was white, barney was black. They lived in New Hampshire, a predominantly white region where the relationship often drew unwanted attention. When the Hills finally sought medical help to understand what happened to them, they found themselves on the receiving end of both skepticism and subtle prejudice. Some questioned not only the validity of their account, but also whether the stress of an interracial marriage had driven them to fabricate such a story. Others insinuated that their encounter was merely a fantasy brought on by the pressures of society.

Travis:

For Betty and Barney, their encounter marked the beginning of a lifelong mystery, until her death in 2004,. That's wild, yeah, she was like, I think, 85. Betty Hill continued to believe in her experience and, though Barney passed away only a few years after the event, he too insisted that they had encountered something beyond our understanding. So Barney died at like 46. Whoa, which, like I, am getting dangerously close to in a couple years. I mean, that just sounds. Do you know how he died, what he?

Josh:

died of.

Travis:

No, couple years. I mean that just sounds. Do you know how he died? What he died of? No, but like he was a black man, you know, in the 60s probably was not able to access the like medical care that was, you know, accessible to a lot of white men of the time yeah, it's possible I shouldn't say I don't know, because the internet exists so it is a pretty crazy story. It it's bonkers Another way to say crazy, sure it's cuckoo.

Josh:

It's wacky Goofy.

Travis:

We're really running through it Okay.

Josh:

That was a brief summary of what happened. They see something in the sky, they have lost time, something happens where they get sleepy. They have period of space, actual distance that they traveled, that they don't remember. They have nightmares and they weren't able to know what actually happened until some hypnosis and they have this hypnosis online that you can watch Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

Travis:

Update on Barney Hill. Yes, he died of a cerebral hemorrhage. So you're precise, hill. Yes, he died of a cerebral hemorrhage. Super sus, yeah, whoa Was that put there?

Josh:

Yeah, by the aliens.

Travis:

Well, Betty died a good long time after she was 85.

Josh:

This is women are stronger than men.

Travis:

She died of cancer, which comes for us all.

Josh:

It does, sadly, we're just going gonna get right into it. I'm just gonna tell you right what is legitimate about the story. Okay, okay, okay, because I'm not gonna do this dance you're not gonna do this dance no and then suddenly the music comes on and you're like can I?

Travis:

have this dance and I'm like god damn it.

Josh:

You said you weren't gonna dance with me I'm not doing that, so here are some of the legitimacy's around this abduction. There is hypnosis.

Travis:

Are you acknowledging that hypnosis?

Josh:

is a thing I am acknowledging that it happened.

Travis:

Okay, there was hypnosis.

Josh:

There was hypnosis. There is some stuff about the hypnosis that some people find very skeptical.

Travis:

Dangerous even.

Josh:

Yes, but there are some things that happen during the hypnosis that stand out, and that's the consistency between their stories, sure.

Travis:

But that's a fucking ride or die man. Betty and Barney Hill were ride or die. They had been-. Oh, I'm sorry, Did you know them?

Josh:

Did you talk to them? Did they tell you this?

Travis:

I don't have to. You can show me the proof. They were an interracial couple, which means that they had been put through some shit, I'm sure, and they both stayed together. That's my favorite part of this story. I think it's like this is. The most beautiful part is that they were united in the story that they were telling. No matter what happened, they'd gotten their story straight and they stuck to it. They were each other's ride or die man. I love that.

Josh:

If you believe that they had to get their story straight, or it could have just been the story. Yeah, I don't believe that you know, because they recounted remarkably similar experiences, but they had hypnosis happen at different times and they weren't informed of what they told during the hypnosis. Their accounts included consistent details about the craft, the appearance of the beings and the medical examinations, sure and the sequence of events. Despite attempts to dismiss these recollections as influenced by external factors, such as popular media, both individuals maintained their accounts even after hypnosis sessions concluded. Well, what was the popular?

Travis:

media. Back then there wasn't any popular media regarding this. There is. Well, I guess we'll get to that part then. I like that. Their stories are consistent and I think that that shows an open communication between this couple. I think they shared each other and, just like we've talked about before, when you're creating a memory, sometimes it's false and sometimes you want to believe something so bad that that becomes your memory. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, because I'm going to try to keep an open mind on this, but I just think that these two being unified under so much pressure is a testament not to the overall alien experience which they may or may not have had, but it's a testament to their relationship and how strong it was.

Josh:

Yeah, betty and Barney, were they in love? Yes, yes.

Travis:

And she never remarried after he died. She and barney, were they in love? Yes, and she never remarried after he died.

Josh:

She became like an icon in this movement, but, yeah, to go against society and stay together. I can't imagine what that would be like probably something similar to my wife and his love what a violation of society a forbidden love yeah, because you were like a quasimodo and she's like a Esmeralda, I think that was her name.

Travis:

We were just here ringing the bells.

Josh:

And, yeah, I was thinking more Shakespearean. But if you want to go the mean route Like Hamlet, no, no. So another thing is the missing time.

Travis:

Yeah, which we talked about last week. Right, this is what you call drinking, that's true.

Josh:

So the Hills could not account for a pretty big chunk of time during their drive, a phenomenon ufologists term missing time. This unexplained gap in their recollection strengthens the possibility of an event they could not consciously recall, and that's kind of supporting the potential validity of their abduction case. There's also physical evidence, like torn clothing. Betty's dress was torn at the hem. She had a pinkish powder found on her dress, just an unusual pink powder. Barney had damaged shoes. They were scraped at the toes.

Travis:

So side note here In grade school, what kind of soap did you have, do you remember?

Josh:

In the school or at home in the school.

Travis:

What did it look like? I don't remember you don't remember being like a pink powder?

Josh:

no, we didn't have powder, we had liquid soap we had powder and it came in a dispenser.

Travis:

Or if you put your hand underneath it and then you push up on a little lever, the soap would dispense so maybe, maybe it was soap, or maybe it was alien. Maybe the aliens were just like washing their hands of this whole experience.

Josh:

Yeah, maybe the aliens in the lab in the space.

Travis:

They were using the same pink powder. They were using the pink powder. That was the technology at the time here on Earth, because that's where they were.

Josh:

Yeah, they couldn't go all the way back to get their own soap. Yep, they had to use what was available.

Travis:

I like this.

Josh:

They're people too. Galeans are people too. So another thing about the physical evidence is Barney's binocular straps were torn and he couldn't explain how it happened. The car trunk markings shiny concentric circles on the car trunk appeared after the incident. Malfunctioning watches both Betty and Barney's watches stopped working after the encounter. And then there was compass anomalies. A compass rolled rapidly when placed near the marking on the trunk, which is super weird. A magnet could do that, but I'm the believer here, so I'm saying no magnet.

Travis:

You would say this is like your classic line compass stagnant, no magnet.

Josh:

Yeah, I always say that Classic.

Travis:

Classic Josh, classic Josh. You got that tattooed on your inner arm.

Josh:

Yep, it was painful, but I'll never forget Worth it.

Travis:

Yeah, you try to work that into conversation every day.

Josh:

There was also the Hill's background. They were both respected members of their community, actively involved in civil rights work. Their commitment to social justice and rational thought makes it unlikely that they would fabricate a story like this, particularly in the social climate in the 1960s. As an interracial couple, they already faced societal scrutiny and may have been hesitant to attract further attention with a fabricated story like this. So the impact on their lives with this story affected them like crazy, leading them to seek medical help and attempt to understand their experience through hypnosis that we talked about. Their willingness to discuss the events with the researchers and undergo extensive psychiatric evaluation demonstrates the genuine impact of the event on their lives. So I mean these are pretty big things that happen. There's physical evidence, there's societal evidence, there's hypnosis. Even though there are some skeptical and dangerous things about the hypnosis, it's still, I mean, the story's lining up.

Travis:

So it's not. It's not backed up by science, like science is pretty much thrown out hypnotism as a, as a means of extracting information. It's all subjective. We don't use hypnotism anymore. This is. It was like a new thing back then and kind of a novelty at a, at a show. Like if you want, this is real right, you can use it to help if you're susceptible to it.

Travis:

But it's just I look at hypnotism, just a lot like some people might look at and I'm not a hypnosis scientist, yeah, but I think that there could be equal amounts of benefit from hypnosis as you would get from meditation when I was growing up it was like hypnosis and acupuncture and all these kind of naturopathic remedies, like it just seemed as though that was just woo-wah, and as I've gotten older it seems that there is some validity and now you're like aha instead of woo-wah yeah it.

Josh:

it just seems like they do work. There is science backing it, there is things happening.

Travis:

I think it's more of a. This is just me speaking as a dumb idiot, travis sitting on a couch with a good bud. Josh, I think that it's a mindfulness thing, like if you want to quit smoking, say right. And they say that hypnosis is very effective at helping people quit smoking. If are dedicated enough to go and get hypnosis which is something you have to pay, rather than just throw your pack of cigarettes or cigars out or whatever and just commit to it, then that means you're dedicated to doing it, and I think those people that go and get hypnotized for smoking are already on the. I'm leaving the smoking camp already.

Josh:

They want to like sink that in their mind I think it's actually more tapping into the subconscious, because we're operating at a conscious level and there's lots of things going on behind the scenes in our brain and we already know that. The brain has a plasticity to it, so it can change. It's also electrical, so you can rewire it. I believe that if you can tap into the subconscious and change the hardwiring thought process of your brain, Our brains are essentially like two pounds of fat that power a 150 pound being through electricity.

Travis:

It is wild. Brains are the wildest thing they are.

Josh:

Yeah, and I think that hypnosis can tap deep inside of that and change some of that. Mindfulness definitely is always important, but I think it's real. But there are ways to abuse it as well, and that's where a lot of this debate comes is, you know, is? Is there prompts? Is there? I don't, I don't know.

Travis:

Well said, especially that last part.

Josh:

The I don't know.

Travis:

Yeah, Like build up to the I don't know.

Josh:

Yeah, I'm not a prompt scientist.

Travis:

Although my father was your father, dr Prompt, they called him yeah. So you do have some arguments. Yeah, I'm just going to tuck into this. So these are some of the arguments that have been brought up about the Betty and Barney Hill abduction. There was a lack of corroborating evidence. Many critics point to the absence of strong physical evidence to support the Hill's claims. While some physical anomalies were observed, such as the torn clothing, trunk markings and malfunctioning watches, these elements lack definitive links to an alien encounter, which is what I agree. The sources do not mention any independent verification of the pinkish powder found on Betty's dress, nor do they provide conclusive evidence connecting the compass anomalies to the incident. Additionally, no other witnesses came forward to confirm the Hill's sighting of the UFO. Additionally, no other witnesses came forward to confirm the whole sighting of the UFO.

Josh:

So they're saying anyone could rip some clothes, stop a watch, put some soap on it.

Travis:

Yeah, anybody could. Yeah, that's like the whole theme of this show so far. Is you want to believe this so bad? And I am looking at it like this is one person saying that they experienced something it is not? I'm not trying to invalidate whatever they felt, but it doesn't ever add up to me as an extraterrestrial experience Like these can all be explained away in very simple terms.

Josh:

And maybe that's what the aliens are trying to accomplish, you know, maybe that's why they left these signs.

Travis:

Maybe this was Barney's whole play to just get a new binocular strap. He just couldn't, he just he was like something happened my binocular strap.

Josh:

He called to get a replacement and it was past its warranty.

Travis:

Yep, and so he created this whole thing to get a new strap. It could be Okay. There was also an influence of external factors. Researchers have proposed that the Hill's account's, particular Barney's descriptions under hypnosis could have been influenced by popular culture, particularly science fiction. The timing of Barney's first hypnotic session, just two weeks after the broadcast of the Bolero Shield episode of the Outer Limits, which featured an alien with large wraparound eyes, raises questions about potential subconscious influence. Additionally, other Outer Limits episodes airing around the same time contain elements mirroring aspects of the Hills account, such as an alien medical examination and the protagonist's car being stopped by extraterrestrials. Critics argue that the Hills may have unintentionally incorporated these fictional elements into their memories, which speaks to that like created memory or a false memory narrative that I think surrounds a lot of these incidences. A lot of them have like missing time or lost time.

Josh:

Yeah, I'm sure I've had false memories. I just don't know how I could watch something on TV or hear something and place that into my mind. That's hard for me to comprehend. Yeah, but everyone has different minds, yep.

Travis:

Some of them are beautiful.

Josh:

Some of them are.

Travis:

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the reliability of hypnosis-induced memories.

Josh:

Yeah, I'm curious about this.

Travis:

A significant portion of the detailed account of the abduction emerged during hypnosis sessions conducted by Dr Benjamin Simon. Critics argue that memories retrieved through hypnosis are susceptible to suggestion, confabulation and the influence of the hypnotist. Dr Simon himself concluded that the case was a singular psychological aberration, suggesting that the abduction narrative may have been a product of the Hill's subconscious minds rather than an actual event. So Dr Simon is even saying this could have been a stored memory from the TV show that they had watched weeks prior Interesting.

Travis:

Okay, and it was in their subconscious, basically sure, whatever that means, you know what it means. Yeah, below conscious yes there are some alternative explanations. Skeptical researchers have offered alternative explanations for the hills experience. For example, jim mc McDonald, a local resident, suggested the Hills may have misidentified an aircraft warning beacon on cannon mountain as a UFO. The beacons appearance and disappearance aligned with the Hills description of the UFOs movements. Mcdonald attributes the remainder of their experience to stress sleep deprivation and the creation of false memories during hypnosis.

Josh:

Yeah, I mean that kind of goes to like the Rendlesham forest thing, where those people saw something and the locals were saying, oh, that's probably the lighthouse. Yeah, because they saw light every four seconds. The lighthouse was on a rotation every four seconds.

Travis:

Possible, possible, conceivable Aliens. So Betty Hill had some later UFO sightings. Ufo researcher Robert Schieffer questions Betty Hill's credibility based on her numerous UFO sightings after the 1961 incident. Schieffer suggests that these sightings, often of blips, blurs and blobs in the sky I love that alliteration, by the way Were misinterpretations of ordinary phenomena. He recounts an instance where Hill allegedly mistook a streetlight for a landed UFO. Schieffer argues that these continued questionable sightings cast out on the credibility of her original abduction claim.

Josh:

It's possible that she had her mind boggled in the spaceship.

Travis:

But haven't you ever thought, like looked at something? And there are a lot of images online, like just scrolling through Instagram, where you're looking at something and you are like holy shit, what is wrong with that kid's legs? And you realize she's standing in a field of corn holding a popcorn bag, but it looks like her legs are junked up because she's holding her popcorn bag kind of low.

Travis:

Yeah, I saw something that's very specific and it's probably not going to translate very well to an audio form, but you know you can look at a picture. It's kind of like those magic eye things where if you look at something long enough it will become whatever.

Josh:

It's possible that she could, because there has been instances in the past, a lot of instances, where people have an alien encounter and then they have a lot of weird things happen after the encounter. So maybe she just continually had weird things happen and the aliens were taunting her and then, jesus Christ I mean, it is a possibility. You know, I don't want to shame someone for seeing something and or maybe maybe her mind was just starting to slip?

Travis:

We're not. I mean, if that's the case, then everybody's mind is slipping because we all would interpret. You could look at these pictures you could see an elephant or you could see a forest yeah Right. And some of these drawings. And at these pictures you could see an elephant or you could see a forest yeah Right. And some of these drawings. And I think if your brain is wired to think that way, you're going to continue to process images in a way that reaffirms your brain wiring Right.

Josh:

Yeah, it is true. I mean, if she truly believes that's what she saw and she's living the rest of her life with paranoia and fear, she's going to see a lot more things.

Travis:

Yeah, life with paranoia and fear, she's gonna see a lot more things. Yeah, like say, you're walking down the street and it's dark and you're a woman and you see a yellow trash bag. Am I going to shame you for thinking that's the cheese goblin?

Josh:

no, what does that have to do with being a woman?

Travis:

I don't, I'm just saying well, I'm because betty. Betty is a woman walking down the street and she's made some claims where she's seen some things. So she's walking down the street when maybe one of the claims is she saw. I don't know, I'd be scared if I saw a cheese goblin. I know, maybe if you walk closer which you wouldn't do, you never approach a cheese goblin but if you didn't, maybe it was just a yellow trash.

Josh:

You can approach it from behind and you'll be fine because cheese goblins can't turn their head right.

Travis:

That's their one weakness yeah, that's the lore. If you approach them from any other angle, though, it's curtains for you.

Josh:

Yeah, you're donezo yeah.

Travis:

Okay, so these counterarguments contribute to the ongoing debate surrounding the legitimacy of Betty and Barney Hill and their abduction. While their story played a pivotal role in shaping the modern narrative of alien abductions, it remains a subject of intense scrutiny and skepticism.

Josh:

But still a foundational landmark for the community. And I mean there's not a lot of especially in that era there's not a lot of very big abduction things- there's people. When things, weird things, happen, people don't talk about it.

Travis:

Yeah, randy Quaid's character in Independence Day said that he had been taken on board a ship and had butt stuff done to him, and that's why he drives his plane into like the mothership here oh, spoiler alert oh shit. Spoiler alert for id id4 independence day yeah if you're listening to this podcast, you probably have that movie memorized yes, great movie, yeah, and he, I mean that's a prime example.

Josh:

You know he talked about what happened.

Travis:

Yeah, nobody believed him.

Josh:

No one believed him. He was made fun of, he was assaulted.

Travis:

Yeah, character was assaulted. Randy Quaid wasn't assaulted.

Josh:

So yeah, the mystery of Betty and Barney Hill remains one of the most compelling and haunting cases in UFO lore. For Betty and Barney, it was an experience that would follow them for the rest of their lives, which Barney wasn't very much longer, but Betty it was there and it filled them with questions they could never fully answer. So in the end, the truth of the Hill abduction may always remain a mystery, and I'm okay with that. So my final thoughts are they definitely experienced something, something happened that was unexplainable to them. I think they did have lost time. I think these things that I don't think they did them themselves, the physical evidence, the tearing and the markings on the car and all these things I think they were baffled. I think it really fucked with their heads. And when they talked to someone for the first time, I think they were frantic enough where the person's like, well, you need to get some help. So they went to a doctor and they hypnotized him to figure out, because that's what was going on at the time. You know like, well, we can help. You see what really happened through hypnosis.

Josh:

It is possible that they tapped into something from other experiences, through media or other things that kind of convoluted into their mind because they're already having nightmares of similar things. But it is possible. I think this is definitely a maybe higher up to the yes, but I mean, it is a forever mystery. It'll always be a mystery, we'll never know. Just because aliens are that good, all right, yep, all right, they know what they're doing. They traveled the cosmos. They've been doing it for a millennia. They, they know what they're doing this ain't their first rodeo?

Travis:

yep, sticking things up buttholes yeah, so is it aliens?

Josh:

yes, maybe, no, maybe no. Mine is a maybe. Okay, what about you?

Travis:

I think I'd come down similar to you in some ways. I think this is just a beautiful story about a couple who has endured a lot of hardship and decided, through all of this, they were going to stick together and damn whatever everybody else thought. They're going to tell their story, whatever that is, whatever their experience was and be true to themselves as a couple. I don't know that this happened to them. Maybe something happened. I'm sure a lot of really fucked up shit happened to interracial couples and we know a lot of fucked up shit happened to a lot of black men at the time. Yeah, now I'm not saying that this was something that they were maybe trying to hide because something really embarrassing happened on their way home, but I'm not going to rule it out because that sort of thing.

Travis:

There's documented evidence of that sort of thing happening really embarrassing, very degrading behavior inflicted on by white people, and maybe it was something embarrassing and they didn't want to talk about it. And this is the way they cope with it. They repress this memory down and then created a story around it to help them, because we all do this in various ways. We create our own narrative in our head to help us get through what can be a very tough existence. I mean, we're all humans on this planet dealing with things, and maybe that's maybe that's what happened. That's a good explanation, so this is why I love the story. So much, though, is that it's just.

Travis:

It's a testament of a couple that is very committed to each other through thick and thin through thick and thin and have each other's back all the way up until Betty died in 2004.

Josh:

All right.

Travis:

So I'm a maybe low, maybe to know. Okay, this is a hard position to take because it is their singular experience that they are telling everybody there weren't any other witnesses, nobody could corroborate anything that had happened. So I'm a low, maybe high.

Josh:

No, all right, I'm okay with that. Okay, I like it. It's a different perspective. I always need new perspectives, for sure, and it's something I hadn't thought of. It's great. So we would love to hear what you guys think. We'll have links in our show notes and you can send us fan mail. Do you know what fan mail is?

Travis:

no, is it where people just send you fans?

Josh:

so they like, click a link in the show notes like fan mail, and they can just text us and we'll get notifications that someone messaged us.

Travis:

Wild yeah, isn't that cool. What a time to be alive and podcasting.

Josh:

Yeah, so we would love to hear from you guys what you guys think or if you have any questions, and we're super glad that you're listening or still listening. That's exciting. Thank you, yep. Okay, so that brings us to our quiz. Yep, our baseline quiz, to let you know what kind of information we know about the next topic that we're going to talk about. Okay, baseline quiz. Oh boy, and our next topic is the Phoenix lights. I am aware of this, I've seen shows about it. Oh boy, and our next topic is the Phoenix Lights. I am aware of this, I've seen shows about it.

Travis:

Surprising no one Not familiar with this. I thought the Phoenix Lights was like a minor league sports team, but I guess we'll find out.

Josh:

Yeah, we will. Let's see what we know. So the first question when did the Phoenix Lights incident take place? Boom, 1986.

Travis:

Going with my gut.

Josh:

So is it A 1986, b 1992, c 1997, or D 2000? You say 1986.

Travis:

1986. With a bullet First, right out of the gate, I'm coming in. Hot man I was thinking the 90s. Okay, but there's two answers in the 90s?

Josh:

yeah, I'm gonna say 97. Right, good pick, coward. Yeah, thank you next question what was the official explanation given for the light seen over phoenix at 10 pm?

Travis:

the a a meteor shower, b military illumination flares, c search lights from a football game or d a large blimp okay, I'm going search lights from a football game to stay in line with my minor sports team theme that I'm creating about this.

Josh:

So this is. This is what you're going with, absolutely okay. My answer is going to be b military illumination flares.

Travis:

Okay next question.

Josh:

I know the answer to this one what celebrity reported seeing the lights to air traffic control? Is that a? Yep kurt russell yep b. Mel gibson nope c. John travolta nope d.

Travis:

Dustin hoffman nope uh kurt russell, you actually know he's talked about it. Well, he's talked about having an experience I don't know.

Josh:

I'm just gonna go off of what you're saying because you sound very sure, very confident.

Travis:

He was on like uh, him and his, his son, were on a show talking about well, and kurt's also a pilot right I think they're all pilots?

Josh:

yeah, that's true, but that's why he was talking to air traffic control, like he had him on speed dial. Sure Interesting. I had no idea that there was any celebrity around that. That's cool. Next question Approximately how many witnesses were there to the Phoenix lights incident? A, a few dozen, b, hundreds, c, thousands, d, tens of thousands?

Travis:

that tens of thousands seems ludicrous. So that's what I'm picking tens of thousands, oh wow, just kidding, I'm gonna say hundreds, that's what I was thinking too, yeah these things are always insane. We talked about the aerial school phenomena and I just can't believe that all of those kids claim to have seen the same thing. So I'm just I mean, I'm going to err on the side of how insane group sightings are yeah, and there's a lot of group sightings.

Josh:

This will be a fun episode.

Travis:

We're going to talk about kurt russell, one of my favorite actors, at least through like the 80s. Okay, I love kurt russell.

Josh:

I do too and his son's doing really great work too. All right, last question what two shapes were most commonly used to describe the formation of lights? A square and rectangular, b triangle and V shape. C oval and boomerang. Or D pyramid and diamond?

Travis:

I mean, what is a boomerang if not just a soft V? So that's a little I'm gonna say, just because of how descriptive it is.

Josh:

I mean, come on, a soft V is very different than a V.

Travis:

No, it's not.

Josh:

Yeah, it is.

Travis:

No, it's not.

Josh:

V's are tight.

Travis:

Depends on your handwriting. I mean, you could do a soft V.

Josh:

I would never do a boomerang for a V.

Travis:

I've done soft Vs before.

Josh:

I don't like this hey.

Travis:

So what do you think? Oval and boomerang is what I'm picking.

Josh:

Okay, I'm going to do pyramid and diamond Cool. I don't know why, but it just kind of reminds me of aliens, right?

Travis:

Yeah, that's reminds me of aliens, right? Yeah, that's what this is about. Your favorite neil's, neil diamond and neil pyramid yeah, the inventor of the pyramid and the inventor of the of diamonds.

Josh:

Yeah, all right. So I'm gonna submit this shit.

Travis:

I'm gonna view my accuracy boy, was I wrong about 1986?

Josh:

oh, I was. So the phoenix light incident. The only one I got right was kurt russell. Well, we don't want the listeners to know that already. All right, let's go through.

Travis:

Let's let's see these answers oh, it's fine, they know the listeners are they already knew. No, the listeners if we have them were screaming into their speakers telling me that I picked wrong. They were probably it was probably like a physical response to me getting something wrong.

Josh:

Or there was people that didn't know, just like you.

Travis:

They're probably, like this guy's, a fucking idiot. It is obviously 1997.

Josh:

I think our listeners are going to be cheering you on. I don't think our listeners are mean. I think they're like. You can do it, travis. Better luck next time, travis.

Travis:

What a Josh. Again we have really good listeners, you're right.

Josh:

I know I'm right. I'm right about all of this Aliens exist. What a beautiful idea. Yeah, so the Phoenix lights incident took place in 1997. Yeah, and you said what?

Travis:

1986.

Josh:

That's right, Okay. Next question was what was the official explanation given to the lights seen over Phoenix at 10 pm?

Travis:

You said Searchlights from a football game, right? Uh-huh, it was right.

Josh:

No, you're right, that is what you said, you're right, I'm wrong.

Travis:

That's what you meant to say Well, I meant You're right. I was that you are wrong.

Josh:

It seems as though I was right, but that's not what I was trying to portray. But yes, the answer was military, but yes. I was wrong. You were wrong. I was right. It was military illumination flares because there was many lights in the sky. What celebrity reported seeing the lights to air traffic control? Your one and only Kurt Russell.

Travis:

I had no idea that's bonkers control you're one and only kurt russell yeah I had no idea that's bonkers yeah, my one, and only I don't know your one true love, my, my lord and savior, kurt russell so we both got that right.

Josh:

I only got it right because of you so does that count double?

Travis:

then do I get double points for that? Sure, I'm still failing less failing now cool yeah, you can have two points great out of a thousand. Yeah, because every other question is worth 250 points, I answered the one that was only worth one point.

Josh:

You have two points now. Yeah, two points, you have a thousand. So approximately how many witnesses were there to the phoenix? I said hundreds, you said hundreds.

Travis:

The answer was thousands. Which kind of poo-poos? Your theory of no, because I initially said tens of thousands. I was going the most extreme.

Josh:

I guess that's true, but you were saying that these are crazy. I mean, there's no way. And now it's thousands, it's worse, yeah, which makes it more credible, right? No, they's no way. And now it's thousands. It's worse, yeah, which makes it more credible, right? No, they just saw lights. So frustrating.

Travis:

They just saw lights. I don't know what this experience is, I'm just judging all my opinion based on this test.

Josh:

That's true, okay, last question what two shapes are most commonly used to describe the formation of lights? I said pyramid and diamond.

Travis:

Yeah, describe the formation of lights. I said pyramid and diamond. Yeah, you said oval and boomerang, but I also said what is a boomerang but if not a soft V? So I think partial credit.

Josh:

So you got half a point. The answer is triangle and V shape. Two and a half points. Two and a half points for Travis. I got that wrong, so I only got three correct.

Travis:

Yeah, but we determined that all the questions that I got right were one point.

Josh:

The ones you get right are, so I got 500 points because I got two right and then you and I both I gave you my point you got 251 points then.

Travis:

Then you gave that point to me, so you have 250 I'm getting so confused with these points right now this is a game where the points don't matter yes, obviously whatever drew, carrie says on whose line is it anyway?

Josh:

But it does matter to you, because you're getting real upset Because I keep screwing these up. That's fine. I just want to win, but you know what you will when we talk about it. It's going to be awesome yeah it's going to be a good app and I'm excited for all you guys to listen and learn about a minor sports team. No, the true meaning of the Phoenix.

Travis:

Lions.

Josh:

Yes, christmas, all right, we will see you guys next week.

Travis:

Okay, thanks for listening. Yep, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.