Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No

Kenneth Arnold's UFO Sighting and the Birth of the Flying Saucer

• Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No • Episode 9

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Flying saucers, close encounters, and the origin of a pop culture phenomenon! 

This week, Travis and Josh delve into the story of Kenneth Arnold, the pilot whose 1947 sighting sparked the world's fascination with UFOs. Was it a military operation, a trick of the light, or something truly otherworldly? 

Join us as we explore Arnold's incredible account, the birth of the term 'flying saucer,' and the fascinating start of our modern UFO obsession.

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Josh:

Aliens Aliens, yes.

Travis:

But maybe no. Welcome to the show. Aliens, yes, but maybe no. I'm travis, I'm josh. This is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title. What did we talk about last week?

Josh:

I was just gonna ask you the same thing. Ah, damn it, you don't remember either it was about rendlesham.

Travis:

Ah, the forest. Okay, all right. So what do you remember about rendlesham?

Josh:

it was spooky rendless ham rendal, rendal, see ham yeah I remember we both came to the conclusion that it just seemed as though there was just the perfect mix of scenarios that happened by chance, that spooked a group of people into thinking that there was something there that potentially wasn't. But there were some other things that made us believe that something was there.

Travis:

Yeah, so did we come down on a maybe.

Josh:

I did maybe and you did maybe. I was surprised that you did maybe because there was a lot of evidence against it.

Travis:

I think I just wanted to believe yeah, We've been doing this for a couple episodes now and I'm just itching now for something that may be what happens on this episode. So today we're going to be talking about Kenneth Arnold.

Josh:

Yeah, a local boy.

Travis:

In a roundabout way. He didn't start here locally, but he ended up here in Boise. Yes, we are based out of Boise. Yeah, go ahead and bleep that out, so the government can't track us.

Josh:

Oh well, they already knew they had to have.

Travis:

Maybe the fbi was looking at a checklist and then going through like we can't really source where these guys are from, they're gonna screw up. They're gonna say the name of their city and then you did it, and now they're gonna know yeah, we're talking about kenneth arnold.

Josh:

Uh, he's from the town we're from. He opened up a business here.

Travis:

He sold firefighting equipment sure, yeah, what else was he? Uh, hobbyist pilot had had his own plane was flying around, which led him to his sighting. Uh, this was near mount rainier yeah, it was.

Josh:

Uh, june 24th 1947 he got the word that there was a military transport plane that went missing and he's just like well, I have time, I have a plane, I'm experienced and I'm going to go out and search for it oh, he was on like a. I thought he was just like tooting around in the skies there was a reward, so he actually was looking for the plane for the reward.

Travis:

Okay a plane that had gone down it went missing.

Josh:

So they didn't know what was going on. They imagined it went down. I mean, that's the logical explanation. I can't. It can't fly forever. No, that's too bad. So yeah, he was looking, it was a very clear, sunny afternoon, very experienced, very smart man, and he flew over a rugged terrain this area right outside of mount rainier in washington and something caught his eye.

Travis:

So this is during the day. This is during the daytime. This is kind of at least in some of the stories we've been talking about kind of an anomaly right to see a daytime and to have a daytime sighting. Most of these happen at nighttime.

Josh:

They exist there are daytime ones. Most of the the things we hear it's at night. I think it's easier to see things in the sky at night, especially if there's lights or anything like that. Like I don't notice airplanes way up in the sky as often as I would at night that's also because we never look up.

Travis:

I haven't looked up in years.

Josh:

No, that's no because we're dealing with depression yeah, most days I don't even look in the mirror for the fear of what I might see. Yeah, talk about a day ruiner.

Travis:

I I'd actually do the opposite when you only look in the mirror. I only look in the mirror when I'm on acid or mushrooms oh, I've heard not to do that.

Josh:

Yeah, ruins your time yeah, I, I don't know, I wouldn't know. So, yeah, he was flying over this rugged terrain. Yeah, all forest out in the middle of nowhere all stems, all sticks what is that? A joint joke?

Travis:

what you want is no stems, no sticks.

Josh:

He saw all stems, all sticks because he's in the forest no, I get it it's like the opposite of what you'd want with your joint yeah, but this guy was a pilot, so he probably wasn't smoking. I don't think so. He saw a bright light, a flash of bright light, and thinking it might be a reflection of another plane, he scanned the sky because that's what he's looking for. He's looking for a plane, but what he saw was not a conventional aircraft. Right, it was something spookier. He described nine objects flying in formation, moving at incredible speed, faster than anything he's ever witnessed in his time as a pilot speed faster than anything he's ever witnessed in his time as a pilot. These crafts were unlike anything he'd seen before. Shaped like crescent moons or flat discs, they moved in a way that defied logic, skimming through the air. So I'm going to stop right there. On the quiz last week, oh boy I I remember acing no, you aced it 100 wrong.

Josh:

But we did have the discussion of the difference between a flying saucer flat disc or crescent moon. Yeah, and you said horseshoe as well.

Travis:

He described it as a delta shape. I don't know what that means. What is a delta shape?

Josh:

I don't know. Through researching I do know what it looks like, but I wouldn't know how to describe a delta shape Like a Batman throwing star with rounded wings, like coming back kind of delta is greek letter of the alphabet.

Travis:

It's the one that looks like a triangle okay.

Josh:

So he saw these things and they were skimming through the air.

Travis:

He estimated their speed at an astonishing 1200 miles per hour, faster than any aircraft in existence at the time he was flying in an airplane, high out of his mind, smoking that sweet chiba which we just talked about, and made these complex calculations with how fast. What an idiot. What a dumb idiot, because he had said it was going like 1200 miles an hour when they found out it was actually going 16. So he's 400 miles off. What a moron. Yeah, do you even math? Yeah, do you even math?

Josh:

So, yeah, he estimated it was going 1,200 miles per hour, 1,000 in any aircraft and they flew erratically, weaving and darting in and out of the mountain peaks, maintaining formation but moving as if under some kind of intelligent control, and the sighting only lasted a few minutes intelligent control and the sighting only lasted a few minutes.

Travis:

That would be spooky. It'd be really spooky, especially back in 1947, when our airways weren't so polluted with traffic right, yeah, it was mostly just like crop dusters or like an occasional military plane.

Josh:

You wouldn't really see something flying over the forest like that, no, and like a personal airplane yeah, and he didn't get freaked out because his first thought was that he just assumed it was some military operation or training flight. But upon landing in yakima, washington, arnold quickly reported what he had seen, describing the bizarre objects in detail, and it was soon picked up by local media and then spread like wildfire throughout the whole nation. Arnold told the press they looked like a saucer skipping on water and when he was misquoted by a journalist, the term flying saucer was born. This is the OG, the original I don't want to say gangster the original gawker.

Travis:

There we go, nailed it.

Josh:

Yeah, thank you. But despite all this worldwide attention, skepticism followed close behind because the U S military investigated Arnold's claims, offering various explanations, from mirages to weather phenomena. However, arnold was adamant what he saw was real and it wasn't like anything from this world. Yeah, and there was other people that saw things that day as well in the surrounding areas. He wasn't alone in what he saw. Yeah, in the years that followed, kenneth Arnold's sighting would be linked to countless other UFO reports, including the infamous Roswell incident, which occurred just weeks later, and there was another one that occurred right after as well, that a guy actually took a picture, and the picture looks exactly like the drawing that Kenneth Arnold drew.

Travis:

Yeah, kind of like that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where he's holding a drink, pointing at the TV from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Yeah, where he's like, ha, ha, yep, that's my ship, that's it.

Josh:

Y'all seen it. I don't know if those drawings that he had had been published by the media, if those went nationwide too and then someone was able to duplicate it, put a black cutout on a string and take a picture. I don't know, that's a possibility. I've seen people do that to fake UFO photos and videos. But that would be really convincing if those drawings didn't go out into the world and that he was able to be like look, it's the same thing. This is exactly what I saw. Some people actually speculated that Arnold's sighting and the Roswell crash were connected to pieces of a much larger puzzle. Yeah, like that was the ship before it crashed at Roswell right.

Josh:

Yeah, it's possible, because the sighting that the guy took pictures of was in Arizona. A couple weeks later. Hey, yeah, hey, yeah, that's there in the place and that guy a couple weeks later, the men in black basically showed up and took all his shit, the photographer shit yeah, yeah, took the negatives of it they took negatives and then they said it was cia and fbi two guys follow up with the fbi.

Travis:

They're like uh no, you got the wrong, guys, buddy yeah that didn't, that didn't happen.

Josh:

Go back to sleep, you sheep.

Travis:

Yeah, here's some. Forget me nows.

Josh:

So to this day, the objects Kenneth Arnold saw still remain unidentified and his sighting is considered one of the most credible in UFO history, and Arnold himself never wavered in his account, even as decades pass and skeptics continue to raise questions. So I think an important takeaway is that this guy was an established businessman. He was a pilot, I think he was a deputy sheriff. Like he, knew everyone, everyone knew him, people believed him, and that's why the story took flight is because everyone knew that this guy wasn't going to lie. He was very respected in the community and didn't he run for?

Travis:

He ran for Lieutenant Governor.

Josh:

Of Idaho.

Travis:

Yeah, but they said no. That's sad. If he were to run nowadays, though, it would be like a shoe-in. They wouldn't even hold an election. They'd be like you believe in flying saucers and all these other conspiracies. Yeah, you're in, get it yeah.

Josh:

So a few important takeaways is that what he saw, what Kenneth Arnold saw on June 24th 1947, it's widely considered the catalyst for the modern fascination with UFOs. So as one of the first sightings, he was misinterpreted and coined the term flying saucer.

Travis:

Well, he didn't. So this is from the Wikipedia page. Years later Arnold claimed he told Bill Beckett, who is a journalist, that they flew erratically like a saucer if you skip it across the water. It goes on to say Arnold felt that he had been misquoted, since the description referred to the object's motion rather than their shape. Thus Beckett has often been credited with first using flying saucer and supposedly misquoting Arnold. But the term does not appear in Beckett's earlier articles. Instead, his first article of June 25th says only he said he cited nine saucer-like aircraft flying in formation. So I still think that he was misquoted. He said saucer-like and then that wording got changed a little bit through other releases of these articles and the term flying saucer was coined.

Josh:

Which is cool. It's nice knowing the origin stories.

Travis:

Yeah sure, flying saucer was coined, which is cool. It's nice knowing the origin stories. Yeah sure goes on to say he clung to a story of shiny, flat objects racing over the cascade mountains with a peculiar weaving motion, like the tail of a chinese kite. He also described the objects as saucer like and their motion like fish flipping in the sun. Arnold describes the objects as flat, like a pie pan and somewhat bat shaped. Holy shit, batman wasn't until june 28th that beckett first used the term flying disc, but not flying saucer okay, but the whole world knew about it because everyone reads the newspaper right back then yeah, that's why I was late today.

Travis:

I had to. I had to fold up my newspaper. Those are hard to fold back up and get everything back in place well, especially what you do with it.

Josh:

You read the comics.

Travis:

And then I try to put the comics back so it looks like I didn't start with the comics, yeah, and then I look at the TV guide.

Josh:

And you crumple the business section to make it look like you read it thoroughly Mm-hmm, yep, I get it. No, they are hard. That's why I don't open them. No, I last time I saw a newspaper.

Travis:

It's been years, I think.

Josh:

I saw one on the counter at a grocery store, once an actual newspaper. Yeah, wow, sunday it was thick. Yeah, that's when they had the colored comics.

Travis:

So, yeah, what you're saying, I mean the whole misinterpretation it's just like sensationalizing it and people wanting to make that story their own, and so I think, but it permanently, yeah, just stuck, just like a lot of things. Well, I mean flying sauc, flying saucers. It elicits a cool image in your head like a thing flying through the air. It just it sounds cool, yeah.

Josh:

And it's something that you can visualize.

Travis:

It's absolutely something you can visualize like a saucer. Everybody's seen a saucer like a plate, something shaped like that, flying through the air.

Josh:

Well. It also exemplifies how popular narratives can overshadow nuanced details and how a mass of people can be tricked into thinking one thing when that wasn't actually what he saw. So unexplained phenomena and high strangeness. Arnold's daughter, kim, later revealed that the full story involved much more than the widely publicized nuts and bolts aspect. She described paranormal events in their home, a shift in Arnold's understanding towards biological or spiritual interpretations and a sense that objects were connected to the afterlife.

Travis:

What.

Josh:

Yeah, this highlights the frequent presence of high strangeness alongside UFO sightings, a theme often downplayed or ignored in the mainstream discussion.

Travis:

So she had like a religious experience.

Josh:

Is that hearing that right? I would say more spiritual in the sense that objects were connected to the afterlife. It sounds like a lot of sightings. The aftermath is strangeness, high strangeness.

Travis:

Well, we talked about this before. Our brains have a hard time identifying things that are abnormal, so we try to normalize it in our head Right. And so she was uh, you know, maybe a spiritual or religious person and was trying to make it make sense in her head.

Josh:

She was saying that she watched this and this happened to Arnold. Yeah, so she described different paranormal events in the house. I don't know what those paranormal events are and there was a shift in her dad's Arnold's understanding towards biological or spiritual interpretation. How old was he? The information I don't have.

Travis:

But still older than one. So a lot of that could just be child's stupid memory.

Josh:

Yeah, but children pick up on a lot of stuff. I mean, if there's a noticeable switch in the behavior of a parent, I mean that's going to be noticeable even to like a seven year old. So in conclusion of this whole Kenneth Arnold thing, it's fascinating because it doesn't seem as like other than the government no one really doubts it. Is he related to hey Arnold, the Nickelodeon cartoon?

Travis:

He had a football head.

Josh:

Yeah, saucer head. So oh, probably, or it's based after him I think so, yeah, yeah, that sounds right.

Josh:

so the story of kent arnold kind of highlights the complexities in interpreting and communicating extraordinary experiences. You know, I mean this guy, very well versed, very well-versed, very well-spoken, couldn't communicate to the masses without it being changed Even slightly. But even a slight change can change the whole narrative In more than a simple UFO report. It signifies a turning point in cultural history which is just bonkers. It marked the beginning of a sustained public interest in UFOs, sparking countless theories, investigations, and continues to fuel debate and research even to this day, even tomorrow, tomorrow. Yeah, this is going to happen tomorrow. There's going to be debate and discussion tomorrow. I don't know what to say to that.

Josh:

You can't, no, you can't argue it Uh-uh. So I think overall, if we're talking about aliens, yes, no, or maybe Does this further, our idea of aliens existing?

Travis:

Does it fall in the maybe camp where there's not really enough definitively to inform our opinion either way? And then, like a hard no, like, for me, the aerial school was a hard no.

Josh:

Because of that one guy.

Travis:

That cool guy, the very cool guy.

Josh:

Yeah, he's going to listen.

Travis:

No, yes that, but he was also like a cool.

Josh:

That's because he was smoking a cigarette.

Travis:

Yeah, he was smoking a cigarette. He was also just like one of the core older kids and I just don't trust kids like as a group. I don't think you should value their opinion. They're all a bunch of dummies like grow up already, okay, stop.

Josh:

Okay. So when it comes to aliens, yes or maybe no, I would say yes In this situation. I think there's enough proof. There's not really anything discredit him. There's other people from around the same area and across the country shortly after that saw it. The governments or whatever they are, men and blacks intervening with some of that stuff. It just seems as though they were taking it way more seriously than just a story. So I would say yes on this, okay.

Travis:

I would say I'm still having a hard time committing to a yes. I don't think I've said yes yet. This is probably-.

Josh:

Other than you do believe, but you just want the proof to believe.

Travis:

I believe, because of how big the universe is, and I just feel like there has to be something else out there. Otherwise it's absolutely terrifying, but I think this is the closest I've ever come to a yes. Okay, I'm still in the maybe, but like I'm getting there, I would say like 75% of the way to a yes from a maybe.

Travis:

I'm great with that and I think a lot of that has to do with the Roswell incident happening so close to this. And then you know some pictures, whether those were faked or not. But all of these testimonies and stories corroborating each other happening within the same time frame I mean we're talking about a couple weeks. It's very clean this spotting happened, and then roswell happening a couple weeks later and then a picture surfacing. So this, this gets me closer and they're credible enough sources. I mean, we're talking about something that happened 75 plus years ago, right?

Travis:

Yeah, some of that testimony may not be true, like we found with the article that was released where they took a little bit of artistic license with how he was describing the ships. There's always going to be, I feel, like that element of these stories. You know media or the government will take artistic license with how they describe it or redact it and remove some information. So I don't know. This gets me the closest to a yes. I'm all for it. I like how this show has become very personal for you, josh, and you're just talking to me, trying to get me to believe in these incidents.

Josh:

Well, I have nothing else going on.

Travis:

This is it All right. Well, there you go. You can put a little yes-ish in your column of convincing Travis that these things are real.

Josh:

If you guys want to share what you guys think yes, maybe or no let us know. There's going to be fan mail, so you can just message us right away through the link and we'll get it.

Travis:

Our inbox is going to fill up very fast, so get your responses in early.

Josh:

Oh yeah, it's just going to be me Just spamming yourself. Yeah, I like you guys. I like that Travis guy. He should believe more Touche. And also it's time for our baseline quiz. Oh God, the teaser for the next episode, boy, because Travis has cheated once. We do not get the quiz until halfway through the recording.

Travis:

This is going to be good. This is one of my doing research specifically for this podcast. This was a topic that I had a lot of fun looking into.

Josh:

The topic next week is the abduction of Betty and Barney Hill. Mm-hmm. So first question in what year did the abduction of Betty and Barney Hill take place? Okay, is it A 1958, b 1961, c 1965, or D 1970? Yeah, I'm going to. I think 61. 61. I'm going to do that. What do you think? 61. Oh, oh, you're saying that was such authority, mm-hmm. Okay, just a going to do that. What do you think? 61. Oh, oh, you're saying that was such authority, mm-hmm, Okay.

Travis:

Just a gut feeling. Okay, from what?

Josh:

I remember. So next question, mm-hmm, where were the Hills abducted? A New Hampshire, b Connecticut, c New York or D Rhode Island?

Travis:

I'll go first. I'm going to say New Hampshire.

Josh:

I was thinking that too. Did you cheat? No, I didn't cheat. I got the quiz the same time as you, yeah, but you're living with the researcher. We don't talk. Are you kidding me?

Travis:

I'm sensing a little bit of collusion. We'll see. Well, I'm going to pick New Hampshire because you seem like you do know it and you're upset that I picked the same thing.

Josh:

This is a great podcast scene, yeah. Next question yeah, what were they doing before the abduction took place? A having a picnic in the mountains, B changing a flat tire, C driving home from a vacation or D getting pulled over by the police?

Travis:

Having a picnic in the mountains is what I think, but also driving home from a vacation or d getting pulled over by the police. Uh, having a picnic in the mountains is what I think, but also driving home from vacation those could be the same thing yeah, I remember seeing that they were in a car, they were driving, so I'm going to say driving home from but what were they doing before the abduction took place?

Josh:

driving question. They were driving home from a vacation. Oh, you seem pretty sure. Well, I've. I've seen documentaries and this is a pretty big, big thing. I don't know what they're doing before they're driving. They could have been doing all these things. That's the question and how much time before these things? Well, that was a question.

Travis:

What were?

Josh:

they doing a year before the you know, yeah.

Travis:

Time. So what was your answer? Uh, mine was having a picnic in the mountains okay, and mine's driving home, yeah.

Josh:

Next question what was the hill's occupations? A barney was a bus driver and betty was a school teacher. B barney was a postal worker and betty was a social worker. C barney was a police officer and betty was a nurse. Or d? Barney was a police officer and Betty was a nurse. Or D? Barney was a construction worker and Betty was a stay-at-home mom. I'm kind of stumped. I don't think Barney was a police officer no, I don't think so either.

Josh:

I'm thinking either postal worker and social worker, or bus driver and teacher okay, well, what's your final answer? I'm gonna say bus driver and teacher. Okay, what do you say?

Josh:

um, I am going to say, uh, postal worker and social worker okay, now our last question how did the hills alleged abduction story become public knowledge? A they wrote a book about their experience. B a reporter obtained a recording of the hills speaking about their experience. C the air force released the findings of project blue book. Or. D they announced it at a ufo convention. Okay, I'm gonna say a yeah, they wrote a book, just because that seems well, they did. They did write a book, but I don't know if that was before after.

Travis:

that's what I'm saying because I'm I'm doing what they do on, like uh who wants to be a millionaire. So, like I know, they wrote book. I don't know if the book was what made them popular or if they got to be popular and then were asked to write a book. The book they wrote was like it came out in the sixties late sixties, if I remember right and then there was a like a made for TV show that came out in the seventies.

Josh:

It was based on the book, based on their Well, I also remember they went through the hypnosis and that was recorded. Yeah, and was that post book or pre-book? I don't know. They could have given that to a reporter so what's your answer? A reporter obtained a recording. Okay, I'm gonna say that. And you say the book. I say a book. Okay, I'm gonna submit this quiz god, I probably I'm gonna.

Travis:

It's gonna be embarrassing when I get nothing right again because I was so confident.

Josh:

Oh my gosh. So question one what year did the abduction take place? We both said 1961. That is correct. Where were the Hills abducted? Second question New Hampshire? We both said that is correct.

Travis:

Oh, you look like you're getting 100%.

Josh:

Question three what were they doing before the abduction took place?

Travis:

You said Having a picnic with their bears Cute.

Josh:

Yeah, and I said driving home from a vacation. Driving home from vacation was the correct answer.

Travis:

All right, really lean into that. Okay, I'm a dumb dummy, legally a moron.

Josh:

The next question was what was the Hill's occupation?

Travis:

I said Barney was a bus driver and betty was a school teacher. What did you say?

Josh:

uh, postal worker and social worker and the postal worker and social worker were correct. I was incorrect. You hear that, travis. I was wrong, you were. So how did the hill's alleged objection story become public knowledge? You said they wrote a book about their experience. I said a reporter obtained recording of the Hills speaking about their experience and that was the correct answer. It's the recording.

Travis:

So I talked you into the correct answer because you were going to say book too. I was. Can you do?

Josh:

that yeah, so they must've wrote the book after the experience yeah. Should be a good recording. Yeah, that'll be a fun one. There's a lot there.

Travis:

Don't we deserve a little bit of fun on this show?

Josh:

I've always said that I know you usually just edit it out, because you say it so often, I do. Well, thank you for listening again or, if it's your first time, thank you for finding us.

Travis:

Oh, what a. What a bad move, though, If you're listening for the first time this is okay, give them some credit.

Josh:

They may not be the weirdos. No, they, they should go back and listen to the beginning. Yeah, just for context. Yeah, if you want to know who we are and what we know and what we don't know uh, we don't know much yeah, definitely give some of the other stuff a listen and enjoy the rest of your life until you listen to the next episode.

Travis:

Wow, okay, bye you.